Steve Bruce

[sharkyvilla]

2 hours ago, Shropshire Lad said:

Going off topic here but....

While I dislike Eric Black as much as the next man, as he was a caretaker manager I’d put Sherwood ahead of him on this list.

I'd keep Black in there and swap Garde for Sherwood.  Remi did stabilise the results a bit in January to be rewarded with no signings whatsoever. Then it was a calamitous run until the end of the season, but it was Black who completely bombed out the foreign signings to the point they decided they wanted to move.  Sherwood is just an absolute moron all round.  Bruce is a bit like Lambert, doing ok treading water until eventually they were beaten men waiting for the pay off.

[srsmithusa]

17 minutes ago, holteend1982 said:

But overall he  took over a side that had won  14 out of nearly 70 games starting from when Sherwood took over. So it wasn't just Di matteos draws he changed, if it was that simple RDM would have started winning from day 1. He turned us around, we would have just done what Sunderland have if we kept RDM. 

Umm.   All but 11 ish of those 70 were PL.  playing against man city, Man U, Liverpool, Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal seems a bit more challenging than playing against Brentford, Bristol City, Rotherham, reading,  or maybe that’s just me. 

Ill admit I cherry picked the teams to make it more obvious, but seriously your statistical evidence that Bruce “stopped the rot” is pretty thin.   And you didn’t give any specific action he took to bring about that creditable accomplishment.  

[holteend1982]

13 minutes ago, sne said:

Thankfully we'll never know.

FWIW I think if RDM had been given the same misguided patience as Bruce has it's not that far fetched he'd have us about where we are now.

And saying that I really don't rate RDM, at all.

Yes thankfully we will never know but I do disagree about where we would be for now. I'm all for Bruce going as well now, we are currently one of the most uninteresting sides to watch in the league by far and with the squad we have and teams we have played against we should be top, no doubt. 

 

8 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

Umm.   All but 11 ish of those 70 were PL.  playing against man city, Man U, Liverpool, Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal seems a bit more challenging than playing against Brentford, Bristol City, Rotherham, reading,  or maybe that’s just me. 

Ill admit I cherry picked the teams to make it more obvious, but seriously your statistical evidence that Bruce “stopped the rot” is pretty thin.   And you didn’t give any specific action he took to bring about that creditable accomplishment.  

True the teams we play now are easier but there's some terrible sides in the PL and just look at some of those results, 8-0 v Chelsea, Wigan 4-0, Liverpool 6-0, Southampton 6-0 with mane scoring the quickest ever PL hat trick, arsenal, man City, Chelsea all beat us 4 0 a few times if I recall, so it's not as though we was even competing with these sides we was just getting thumped everytime we played them. Results like than aren't just overturned because you get relegated as RDM quite clearly demonstrated, I can't say for sure what Bruces actions were as I'm not there on the training ground watching but he clearly done some things. Signing the likes of Terry and snoddy certainly helped though. 

 

[TheStagMan]

3 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Don't even know why I'm rising to it but here you go (not necessarily in an order):

1. Remi Garde

2. Alex McLeish

3. Eric Black

4. Roberto di Matteo

5. Paul Lambert

Why? Because it is a discussion, and also, it is not really on to pour scorn on someone's opinion and offer none yourself. That way we can have a discussion and understand where you are coming from. That's what a forum is all about. 

 

For instance, I do not believe Lambert deserves to be in that top 5 - he kept us in the prem on very limited resources. Eric Black - caretaker, but agreed, atrocious. McLeish - agreed. Again though, dd not have a lot to work with and I believe was on a hiding to nothing and bought in to be unpopular/make the terrible calls (hence the astronomical salary). Remi Garde I would not have in that list as he was hung out to dry - never really got to see his managerial abilities. Budda Handsome - I'm on the fence on that one. It was bad, but then he was not given much time. 

 

So, based on your list - I would say you are basing it solely on results. Which is not what I am doing. My list would be based on results vs resources available vs the competition versus the importance to the club of those results. On that basis, Bruce absolutely deserves to be in my top 5 (my opinion) from the last 12 years. Perhaps not my top 5 of all time. (have to save a space for Dr Jo).  I can understand why you don't agree based on what I think you are judging on.

[TheStagMan]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Erick Black, Roberto Di Matteo, Paul Lambert, Remi Garde, Tim Sherwood, Alex McLeish, Gerard Houllier.

Basically everyone since MON. Which is hardly a compliment.

I think only Houllier could really be argued as better. But even that is a stretch.

Off topic but I really would have liked to see what Houllier could have achieved if his health hadn't gotten the better of him. Similarly  for Remi Garde had he not been thrown under the bus.

I do agree that we have had terrible management since MON, both on and off the field. Unfortunately it is continuing today.

[markavfc40]

36 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

Umm.   All but 11 ish of those 70 were PL.  playing against man city, Man U, Liverpool, Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal seems a bit more challenging than playing against Brentford, Bristol City, Rotherham, reading,  or maybe that’s just me. 

Ill admit I cherry picked the teams to make it more obvious, but seriously your statistical evidence that Bruce “stopped the rot” is pretty thin.   And you didn’t give any specific action he took to bring about that creditable accomplishment.  

We'd won 5 games in 18 months when he arrived. Hadn't won away in 14 months. Started the 2016/17 season with one win in 12 a run which included a defeat to 4th tier Luton. Despite the changes by RDM the squad still wreaked off an ingrained losers mentality and still contained a lot of players who when putting a Villa shirt on were used to losing - off the top of my head Baker, Richards, Hutton, Bacuna, Westwood, Amavi, Ayew, Gestede, Gabby, Veretout, Cissoko, Grealish, Gardner.

When Bruce arrived the club had been going backwards for six years the last 15 months of which we hardly won a game in. There was a huge task to be undertaken to stop that backwards trajectory and set us in a forward motion. That task has been well and truly achieved and for that I thank him. I also thank him for twice putting a very good squad for this level together, helped hugely by the resources he was given. The truth now is though that last season he didn't get the best out of the squad he assembled and this season is the same story. It is therefore clear he has taken us as far as he can.

[Guest av1]

I've never been a fan of RDM, but i do find it rather ironic that some of the stuff used to defend Bruce after 2yrs was the same stuff we used to beat RDM after 11 games.

Bruce - He inherited a team and club in turmoil. Was it any worse than the shit RDM inherited after relegation?

RDM - He spent lots of money on the defence and attack, but didn't do anything about the midfield,  mind boggling given he was a midfielder. I don't even need to point out the similarities here. 

RDM - There didn't seem to be any system or style of play! Bruce gets an extra couple of years and there still isn't one.

Bruce - Has promotion from the championship on his CV. RDM had a Champions league title of his CV. 

Yes but JT basically managed Chelsea to CL success - And Bruce is doing so much better this season without JT in the dressing room?

Bruce - You need time to turn a club around - we gave RDM 11 games. 

 

 

Look I'm not a fan of RDM, but the excuses used to defend Bruce are exactly the same as those used to bash RDM after 11 games. 

[srsmithusa]

Based on what I’m seeing here.  I’m guessing that “stop the rot” means reducing the number of losses?   But other than shipping out playerd that were used to losing ( and being in a lower division with higher resources relatively, the only thing I can think he did was play more defensively so we stopped conceding late goals.   (Of course that only really impacted whatever “rot” RDM didn’t fix in 11 ish matches.  

Yes, he brought in a bunch of new players (now we’re back to resources) most of which are described as not good enough on these pages.

honestly, other than playing better defense, I’m not sure what he did to “stop the rot” or that the rot had not more or less run it’s course.  I’m not saying he did nothing, I’m admitting that I don’t know what he did (if anything) and it sounds from the responses that I might not be alone.  

Happy to hear more.  Or happy to ruin anyone else’s party by trying discuss football.  

[Dale]

2 hours ago, jim said:

Your wish is my command!

 

Slimmer than real life! 

[TRO]

so In the most frightening of scenario's where we bring in another manager and the same old things are still there.

What then?

Has anyone contemplated that?......any thoughts?

Now I am not saying stick with him on that basis alone.

What I am saying is.....They have to get it right next time.

Don't they?

Edited September 26, 2018 by TRO

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, TheStagMan said:

Off topic but I really would have liked to see what Houllier could have achieved if his health hadn't gotten the better of him. Similarly  for Remi Garde had he not been thrown under the bus.

I do agree that we have had terrible management since MON, both on and off the field. Unfortunately it is continuing today.

Yep Houllier was alright in my book. A shame w couldn’t see how that turned out. 

Garde was awful. BUT he took over at a time when I think honestly nobody could have got anything from our team. They might have got more than garde, but mourinho or guardiola would have still gone down with that team. Sherwood’S reign of terror had destroyed us. 

[TRO]

49 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

Based on what I’m seeing here.  I’m guessing that “stop the rot” means reducing the number of losses?   But other than shipping out playerd that were used to losing ( and being in a lower division with higher resources relatively, the only thing I can think he did was play more defensively so we stopped conceding late goals.   (Of course that only really impacted whatever “rot” RDM didn’t fix in 11 ish matches.  

Yes, he brought in a bunch of new players (now we’re back to resources) most of which are described as not good enough on these pages.

honestly, other than playing better defense, I’m not sure what he did to “stop the rot” or that the rot had not more or less run it’s course.  I’m not saying he did nothing, I’m admitting that I don’t know what he did (if anything) and it sounds from the responses that I might not be alone.  

Happy to hear more.  Or happy to ruin anyone else’s party by trying discuss football.  

Partly, but not wholly.

I think it was meant as " stop conceding in the last 10 minutes and stop surrendering a lead with ease, stop yielding the initiative....but the knock on effect was draws and losses.

I think he did....BUT as opposed to improving the defenders....He just defended in numbers, thus rendering the attack under deployed.

Edited September 26, 2018 by TRO

[foreveryoung]

Can we really afford to sack Bruce and him and his croonies off. What about FFP?

[sne]

For me "the rot" was Lerner and some of the players who were part of our fall from grace.

Xia replaced Lerner and made possible the shipping out and replacement of most of the players by spending millions of £, sadly in a very poor way.

Under Xia and his appointments (including Bruce) we created a new rot that now needs to be cleared out.

 

 

[Mark Albrighton]

He’s sat next to Southgate at the Liverpool - Chelsea game tonight for some reason. Looks knackered.

[Vive_La_Villa]

Not really looking forward to Friday.  Would like to see us play well and win but at the same it just prolongs the inevitable. Maybe the same old s**t but 3 points and Bruce still gets the axe.

[KenjiOgiwara]

6 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Don't even know why I'm rising to it but here you go (not necessarily in an order):

1. Remi Garde

2. Alex McLeish

3. Eric Black

4. Roberto di Matteo

5. Paul Lambert

Saying that Lambert who kept us in the PL on a championship budget under Lerner is a worse manager than Bruce who keeps us in the championship on a PL budget, well that's quite frankly bonkers. Have a word. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by KenjiOgiwara

[NurembergVillan]

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

We'd won 5 games in 18 months when he arrived. Hadn't won away in 14 months. Started the 2016/17 season with one win in 12 a run which included a defeat to 4th tier Luton. Despite the changes by RDM the squad still wreaked off an ingrained losers mentality and still contained a lot of players who when putting a Villa shirt on were used to losing - off the top of my head Baker, Richards, Hutton, Bacuna, Westwood, Amavi, Ayew, Gestede, Gabby, Veretout, Cissoko, Grealish, Gardner.

When Bruce arrived the club had been going backwards for six years the last 15 months of which we hardly won a game in. There was a huge task to be undertaken to stop that backwards trajectory and set us in a forward motion. That task has been well and truly achieved and for that I thank him. I also thank him for twice putting a very good squad for this level together, helped hugely by the resources he was given. The truth now is though that last season he didn't get the best out of the squad he assembled and this season is the same story. It is therefore clear he has taken us as far as he can.

As and when he finally leaves, I'm going to quote this post and lock the thread so it's the final, fitting, epitaph.

[thejoker]

1 hour ago, Shropshire Lad said:

He’s sat next to Southgate at the Liverpool - Chelsea game tonight for some reason. Looks knackered.

Scouting Cahill accordingly to the rumours. A complete waste of Bruce’s time though because I will be amazed if he is still our manager in January.

[sheepyvillian]

Who the heck care's where he is on a list. It doesn't alter the fact that he his doing a terrible job for us. So, au revoir, Steve, and good riddance.

Edited September 26, 2018 by sheepyvillian