The Rémi Garde thread

[New_Jersey_Villa]

6 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

You can't look at it the situation in a vacuum like that. It's not just the quality of player he's had to work with, which is very low indeed. It is the situation he found them in emotionally and physically. It is the HUGE gaps in the squad that will need to be filled no matter what division we find ourselves in. It is the complete lack of belief and the extreme apathy of the crowd. Year after year many of these same players and particularly the fans have been through the same bullshit, those that care are probably exhausted and those that don't simply don't deserve to play for any football club, never mind one as wretched as ours. The club is rotten from the inside all the way out, I bet even poor Doris has ran out of teabags. To say "oh well he has some decent players" is way too narrow minded. 

As poor as I think he has been in many aspects so far, this is no time to judge his longer term ability. He hasn't had the short term impact we needed and now that opportunity has come and gone. So we switch to plan B, lets see how he builds from here. Because that is the one part of his CV that appears strongest. 

 

6 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

This is the part I can't get my head around. I completely acknowledge he inherited a mess. I just can't put my faith in Garde if anything like this run continues until the end of the season though. If I was to do that what would I be basing that faith on? His CV as a manager is limited. He had three seasons at one club where by most accounts he did well. However he had zero experience of going into a struggling side, zero experience of going into a club mid season and has zero experience of managing a club in a second tier and zero experience of getting a club promoted. Nothing on his CV suggested he could drag a club in the shit out of it and nothing on his CV points to him being able to bring a club on its knees back up.

In my lifetime I have only come close to experiencing anything like this once in 1986/87. At that time the man who came in to rebuild a club that was a shambles was Graham Taylor.  A guy with vast experience of lifting a struggling club, a guy with vast experience of building a team, a guy with vast experience of multiple promotions a guy whose CV told you he could manage on a budget and take average players and mould them into a team and get average players performing to a level above and beyond their natural ability.

If Garde had that kind of CV I could put my faith in that. I could cling to that. Gardes past never really suggested he could come in here and turn things around quickly and instil confidence into players devoid of it, quickly organise us and at the very least have the players giving their all. We had to have a little bit of blind faith that he could do that and reading this and other threads at the time he was appointed it seems most of us believed it was possible to get more out of this squad. Certainly the board did as they spent millions making the change. He has had no short term impact though so that somewhat blind faith was misjudged.

If we do get to the end of the season and results have stayed pretty much as they have been under him so far then why should I again put faith in Garde if he has had no positive impact on results or significant impact on performances. His CV doesn't give me any indication he can get a club promoted as Graham Taylors did back in 1987. You can't just throw blind faith into a manager simply because we think chopping and changing managers is the wrong thing to do or because we don't know if the next guy the board appoint will be any good. If that was the case we may as well have stuck with Tim Sherwood and I don't remember many calling for that 10 games into the season.

While the above two posters have very different points of view, I couldn't help thinking to myself that it's a pity the players can't express themselves on the Football pitch in similar fashion. Some thought and effort goes a long way.

I'm not sure what the hell happened after the West Ham game (Dressing room bust up maybe?), but the small baby steps Garde appeared to be taking in getting us pointed in the right direction have evaporated, as the last three games have shown.

I'd say stick with Garde until the end of the season at the very least. I don't think anyone could save us at this point, so changing the manager would just add more fuel to the fire and make us an even bigger laughing stock (If that's even possible at this point)

[NurembergVillan]

You could stick AP McCoy on a donkey but he'd still come last.

In the Premier League if the players aren't good enough, and then some of them can't be arsed, you've got absolutely no chance - no matter who is in the dugout.

[villafan306]

Like many have said, the squad has not been good enough since MON left.

We have had some very lucky escapes based on the performance of a few key players (Bent, Benteke especially). We no longer have that kind of talisman to bail us out and we have been found out.

Look at Bournemouth, it takes a philosophy throughout the club and time to get the right players who fit that way of playing.

Garde is obviously trying to get the current crop to learn his style but with one or two exceptions it is just not working out. My only question is what is this philosophy? We have played so badly it is almost impossible to see what he is trying to do.

[NurembergVillan]

I've asked this in previous seasons, but if we put our whole squad up for sale where do you think they'd end up?

Only Ayew and Richards (Amavi if fit) would be in the top half of the Premier League. The rest of them would be either playing for strugglers or rubbish teams in Scotland, Holland etc

Too many of them are just absolutely crap.

[Demitri_C]

Agreed nv. Out of the current bunch the only ones I would keep are okore, ayew, amavi, Richards , veretout and Westwood. I think Rudy's crap but I'd be forced to keep him because of his success in championship.

the rest can go useless pile of crap

[Keyblade]

19 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

I've asked this in previous seasons, but if we put our whole squad up for sale where do you think they'd end up?

Only Ayew and Richards (Amavi if fit) would be in the top half of the Premier League. The rest of them would be either playing for strugglers or rubbish teams in Scotland, Holland etc

Too many of them are just absolutely crap.

Amavi
Ayew
Veretout
Richards
Gil
Traore
Okore

Are all good players and would have no trouble playing for a midtable side at least. This just made me realize how poor our squad actually is. And here I thought we actually strengthened this summer.

Sinclair
Richardson
Hutton
Gestede
Agbonlahor
Lescott
Sanchez (still hasn't adjusted to the PL, although there is a player somewhere in there)
Guzan (remains to be seen if he's well and truly done at this level though)

Are all terrible

Westwood
Clark
Bacuna
Grealish (easily has the potential to be among the first bunch)
Gana
Kozak

Are just about good enough/adequate for where we should have been aiming for at the  start of the season if things didn't go tits up ie: lower midtable/survival.

So we have as many if not more terrible players as we have quality players, and therein is where are problem lies. You are only as good as you weak link, and we have way too many weak links to be properly competitive. How can you compete when you have Hutton Guzan and Richardson dropping clangers every week and an unmoveable pillar starting upfront? You really can't. You can see Remi's frustrations especially during the Wycombe match that he can't get it to work.

[Wainy316]

Keep, Ayew, Amavi, Veretout, Okore, Richards and Sanchez until we can sign a proper defensive midfielder.

[VillaCas]

47 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

Keep, Ayew, Amavi, Veretout, Okore, Richards and Sanchez until we can sign a proper defensive midfielder.

It won't be our choice who we keep - the players and agents will decide. Anyone decent will be off, the players that stay will be the ones who are not wanted by better sides.  Players have absolutely no loyalty to Villa and they all think that relegation was someone elses fault not theirs.  No one will want to stay in what will be a poisonous and toxic environment.

I very much doubt Garde will be able to attract any quality at all in the January window and I can see our performances getting worse not better (imagine) as players begin to mentally disengage as they sort their futures out

Garde will probably walk or be sacked and we will have trouble attracting anything other than damaged goods or a real gamble from Div1/2 - I expect someone like Neil Lennon to turn up

We will have one single transfer window to get things right and we will need to bring 10 or 12 players in.  If we make a single mistake in this recruitment we're f****d. 

Even if we come back at the first attempt (which is unlikely) we will not get decent investment and will not have the squad to cope. At best I can see us being a yo-yo club at worst I can see us occupying a similar position to SHA or Wolves.

Eventually our larger support should help us get back to the PL but this could be 8-10 years in the future

....and for some it's all Garde's fault

[romavillan]

10 hours ago, tomaspg said:

http://www.gyfbin.com/2016/01/hgifv.html?m=1

if 11 year old kids can do it, we should be alble too aswell right?!

i dont know what it is, but im guessing its  the simplicity of that goal that gets me. No fancy moves, no wanna-be-messi overcharging in a feeble attempt, just simple basic teamwork. How we cant string that together is beyond me.. I'ts **** basics

what a beautiful goal, all one and 2 touch, good movement and with the last 2 passes very good awareness and vision. it is the basics, having, and being sure you have, a great first touch earns you time and space. It shouldn't be somethign a professional has to think about. Too often our team, through shattered confidence, has players in who don't have enough faith in themselves to control a ball when opposition players are close. Recipe for disaster, a vicious circle that is hard to break.

Remi is tasked with breaking it, and I think judging by how often we have decent first 20 mins looking organised before an inevitable mental collapse after the other team score, he does do good work on the training ground. We do look more compact and have better shape than early in the season. We need more than good preparation though now, we need some new players and we need to start playing with some more belief. Belief enough to get the basics right...

[sexbelowsound]

Those are some bloody big 11 year olds! 

[supermon]

The majority of our player's have an awful first touch, none really have the midas touch to do one touch football, either that or the initial pass in woeful to begin with.

We have seen some of these players play some decent stuff across the park, i suppose it was more eye catching when we had players of the ilk of Benteke, Delph and Cleverly. Just thinking way back to when Delph scored that goal against City and that goal against Liverpool, we passed about pretty decent then.  Shame we cannot get consistency.

[BOF]

1 hour ago, VillaCas said:

It won't be our choice who we keep - the players and agents will decide. Anyone decent will be off, the players that stay will be the ones who are not wanted by better sides.  Players have absolutely no loyalty to Villa and they all think that relegation was someone elses fault not theirs.  No one will want to stay in what will be a poisonous and toxic environment.

While it's true that players will want to go, the deal will still have to be right for the club.  We're not going to be selling players off for buttons, so in that sense we may hold on to players that you expected to be gone purely because other clubs wouldn't stump up enough cash.

1 hour ago, VillaCas said:

I very much doubt Garde will be able to attract any quality at all in the January window and I can see our performances getting worse not better (imagine) as players begin to mentally disengage as they sort their futures out

I agree with both parts i.e. the difficulty of a January window in our position and the problem of getting performances out of players as we get closer to May.  I hope against hope that professional integrity and pride will mean that the players continue (or is that 'start...') to put in committed performances so that they can leave with their heads held relatively high.  The players whose heads drop should not be near the first team.  Not out of any sense of punishment, but simply because it's not in the best interests of the club on a match day.

1 hour ago, VillaCas said:

Garde will probably walk or be sacked and we will have trouble attracting anything other than damaged goods or a real gamble from Div1/2 - I expect someone like Neil Lennon to turn up

On this we will disagree.  There are plenty of capable managers out there for whom Aston Villa are still a big lure.  As fans we compare Villa to what we could be.  But outsiders, certainly within the industry, still see a huge club in the 2nd tier who are hurting and who they think they could turn around.  Let's not undersell ourselves because we're in a bad period.  This is still a very attractive job for the vast majority of managers out there.  Yes there'll be the usual collection of has-beens and 'always linked' but if we do go looking for a manager then I would hope they'd see it as an exciting opportunity to bring in an up and coming quality manager.  That shower down the road managed it after all...

1 hour ago, VillaCas said:

....and for some it's all Garde's fault

In defence of those who I lock horns with, I don't think I've ever read anyone claiming that what's going on at Villa is 'all Garde's fault'.  They are merely claiming that amongst all the crap, we could still have a better manager or one more equipped for the situation we're in.  I don't agree with them, but that's what opinions are all about.  It's important to understand the point being made by those who we don't agree with.

[VillaCas]

18 minutes ago, BOF said:

On this we will disagree.  There are plenty of capable managers out there for whom Aston Villa are still a big lure.  As fans we compare Villa to what we could be.  But outsiders, certainly within the industry, still see a huge club in the 2nd tier who are hurting and who they think they could turn around.  Let's not undersell ourselves because we're in a bad period.  This is still a very attractive job for the vast majority of managers out there.  Yes there'll be the usual collection of has-beens and 'always linked' but if we do go looking for a manager then I would hope they'd see it as an exciting opportunity to bring in an up and coming quality manager.  That shower down the road managed it after all...

In retrospect, I think you're right. I think I was in a very dark mood when I wrote my original comment! Fingers-crossed we can get an Eddie Howe-type in when we are looking again. 

Sadly, I think (based on no evidence) that Garde could have been really good for us, but the timing of his move is all wrong.  He took a huge gamble with his career taking us over when he did and I think things were much further gone than he realised from outside. I think he, like us has been dismayed by the ineptitude of the players. I think if he came to us in the close season he would have been a success but it is look very bleak unless he can string two or three wins together.

It's absolutely heart-breaking isn't it

[sne]

If he starts with Gestede and Sinclair again tonight I think I might be done with him.

I respect he doesn't have many options, but still...

[bobzy]

15 hours ago, VillaChris said:

Back to the Garde bit,,,,,surely the relevant question is are you confident Remi Garde is the person to bring us straight back next season, either automatically or through the play offs. To do either we'll need to win 25/46 games at least so just over 50% win ratio.

I've said before in recent years premier league teams who've gone down with foreign manager or rookies have struggled. Cardiff went down with Solsjkaer, he was sacked by October. Same with Fulham and McGarth. QPR went down with Ramsey, same result. When Wolves went down they appointed Stale Solbakken who'd done well in Scandinavia, he lasted just past xmas.

Whereas likes of Hull and Burnley who have managers who know that division inside out are in the top 6.

But then that conveniently overlooks Chris Hughton, who won the Championship with Newcastle in his very first managerial role, and Alex Neil, who was a relative rookie with Hamilton, getting an immediate return via the playoffs with Norwich.

You're also ignoring the circumstances for most established, relegated Premier League teams who need to rapidly re-adjust their wage bill and fight off other clubs purchasing their better players once going down.  An immediate return is simply unlikely (I have no idea how often it was happened over the past, say, 20 seasons), irrespective of the manager.

[BOF]

11 minutes ago, VillaCas said:

In retrospect, I think you're right. I think I was in a very dark mood when I wrote my original comment! Fingers-crossed we can get an Eddie Howe-type in when we are looking again. 

Sadly, I think (based on no evidence) that Garde could have been really good for us, but the timing of his move is all wrong.  He took a huge gamble with his career taking us over when he did and I think things were much further gone than he realised from outside. I think he, like us has been dismayed by the ineptitude of the players. I think if he came to us in the close season he would have been a success but it is look very bleak unless he can string two or three wins together.

It's absolutely heart-breaking isn't it

 

I think many people adopt a self-preservation approach of apathy and indifference.  The alternative is bad for the blood-pressure.  I will always 'hope', but I no longer 'expect'.  For that to happen then some of the things I've suggested in the "Where do we go from here" thread would need to happen IMHO.

[Dante_Lockhart]

2 hours ago, romavillan said:

what a beautiful goal, all one and 2 touch, good movement and with the last 2 passes very good awareness and vision. it is the basics, having, and being sure you have, a great first touch earns you time and space. It shouldn't be somethign a professional has to think about. Too often our team, through shattered confidence, has players in who don't have enough faith in themselves to control a ball when opposition players are close. Recipe for disaster, a vicious circle that is hard to break.

Remi is tasked with breaking it, and I think judging by how often we have decent first 20 mins looking organised before an inevitable mental collapse after the other team score, he does do good work on the training ground. We do look more compact and have better shape than early in the season. We need more than good preparation though now, we need some new players and we need to start playing with some more belief. Belief enough to get the basics right...

*Insert Aston Villa gif of that amazing one touch counterattack goal that I can't find anywhere*

[AntrimBlack]

I think if we were to sack Garde, we would be looking at him at some point in his future career and thinking, ``That could have been us.'' 

[Eames]

5 hours ago, NurembergVillan said:

I've asked this in previous seasons, but if we put our whole squad up for sale where do you think they'd end up?

Only Ayew and Richards (Amavi if fit) would be in the top half of the Premier League. The rest of them would be either playing for strugglers or rubbish teams in Scotland, Holland etc

Too many of them are just absolutely crap.

See Barry Bannan. A huge chunk of the supporters felt he should be a nailed on starter and the future of our midfield. 

Now at Sheffield Wednesday. 

 

[KHV]

1 hour ago, sne said:

If he starts with Gestede and Sinclair again tonight I think I might be done with him.

I respect he doesn't have many options, but still...

He has had options not to use these two but ignored them