K-Mac

[Demitri_C]

2 minutes ago, gilbertoAVFC said:

Did anything ever come of these bullying claims?

Nope

[sheepyvillian]

On 08/12/2017 at 23:30, briny_ear said:

No, it’s not subjective at all. It’s very simple. If someone feels they are being bullied, they are being bullied and you are not going to get the best out of them.

Any youth coach needs to be very sensitive to the very different reactions that young kids can have to coaching styles and should show their wards respect. They have a duty of care and that phrase is more than just a slogan

Absolutely on point .

Take a bow ,BE .

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44088614

 

Quote

 

Arsenal suspend Under-23 coaches Steve Gatting and Carl Laraman after complaints

Arsenal have suspended Under-23s coaches Steve Gatting and Carl Laraman following complaints of bullying from some players.

It is understood the complaints have come from members of the U23 squad.

Gatting is Arsenal's U23s head coach and played for the club 76 times from 1977 to 1981. Laraman is his assistant.

"We have suspended two coaches and launched an investigation following complaints from some players," a club spokesman said.

"These are private matters and we will not discuss any further detail."

Both men are yet to comment on the suspension.

 

Just seen this and thought it was fitting to post here due to the debate.

Once again has me questioning if kids/players are actually being "bullied", or just being modern spoilt brats to be honest.

Obviously I have no evidence one way or another.

However based on the climate we live in and how everything offends everybody and all types of other bollox it wouldn't surprise me.

[VillaChris]

There was stuff about Peter Beardsley in the Newcastle academy a while ago aswell.

[mikeyp102]

11 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44088614

 

Just seen this and thought it was fitting to post here due to the debate.

Once again has me questioning if kids/players are actually being "bullied", or just being modern spoilt brats to be honest.

Obviously I have no evidence one way or another.

However based on the climate we live in and how everything offends everybody and all types of other bollox it wouldn't surprise me.

Most people on this site will have played football at some point. There is piss taking between players and coaches, plus to get you to work hard coaches will shout and even belittle you. Having never been at an elite, I can imagine that coaches push you even harder, and this will come from shouting and belittling). I don’t think it’s meant as a bully thing, just a way to push people on. 

Most professional coaches have come through the professional circuit themselves, probably around the 80s/90s so their experience of how you handle things will be based on how their coaches acted.

The modern world and thus the expectations of others is changing rapidly. The players are probably not used to being shouted at and belittle and thus see this as being bullied.

I think there is a learning curve for old school coaches and new young players, and a misdl ground needs to be adapted.

[NeilS]

11 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44088614

 

Just seen this and thought it was fitting to post here due to the debate.

Once again has me questioning if kids/players are actually being "bullied", or just being modern spoilt brats to be honest.

Obviously I have no evidence one way or another.

However based on the climate we live in and how everything offends everybody and all types of other bollox it wouldn't surprise me.

I would not be surprised if you are not far off the mark with that final paragraph. I remember hearing that my Nephew in law as a young child (now he is 18) had very different sports days to my generation where everyone was a winner and received medals. Now that is all very nice at the time, but doesn’t toughen a child up to disappointment and not getting their own way. Now he is quick to claim he is being bullied if he gets told off by my brother or his Dad and legs it to his Grandma’s at the first sign of trouble. He shows no signs of getting a further education often skipping classes or job again making excuses and not doing work experience.

Now I only have that one example, so could be totally wrong but it does seem to ring true with these stories about football clubs and bullying. Even the armed forces have had to water down their training as the generation coming through can’t take discipline.

[Stevo985]

Old men labelling bullying and the like as “toughening up” is part of the problem. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

23 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Old men labelling bullying and the like as “toughening up” is part of the problem. 

Cup cakes, sleep ins and safe spaces for the military next?

[Stevo985]

7 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Cup cakes, sleep ins and safe spaces for the military next?

Dismissing people for speaking out against bullying with comments like the above is also part of the problem. 

People are afraid to speak out because they get mocked. 

[HanoiVillan]

15 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Cup cakes, sleep ins and safe spaces for the military next?

I feel quite sad about this, because I think you're a much better poster than this and this is way below you. 

One of the things we have learned about Barry Bennell, who has been convicted of sexually assaulting several boys (some allegedly up to 100 times) and may have assaulted dozens more through his own youth team and his work with Crewe's youth system, is that young players were afraid to report their abuse because they were terrified to do anything that might jeopardise their career. Creating an atmosphere in which people who have been abused are mocked, scoffed at and disbelieved as a matter of course (as they have been in the last few posts in this thread, on the basis of absolutely nothing whatsoever except prejudice) has very predictable consequences in raising the costs for real victims to come forward and inform people of their abuse. 

None of this means that MacDonald, Beardsley or anybody else is automatically guilty of bullying, and that's why it's important to have thorough investigations that take allegations seriously, which give people the opportunity to clear their name if they did nothing wrong, or be found out if they did. 

If you want to create an environment in which children have to shut up and suffer in silence through abuse, you're going about it exactly the right way. If you don't, it might be time to reconsider whether mocking kids as wusses is going to help. 

(Sorry if this post comes across as harsh, but this is a serious issue.)

[briny_ear]

Great post HanoiVillan. Just to add, it’s wrong to use the example of military training to try to argue that young people are going soft. Military trainers have a duty of care just as much as anyone else. Just look at what happened at Deepcut to understand what happens when this duty of care is failed.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

I feel quite sad about this, because I think you're a much better poster than this and this is way below you. 

One of the things we have learned about Barry Bennell, who has been convicted of sexually assaulting several boys (some allegedly up to 100 times) and may have assaulted dozens more through his own youth team and his work with Crewe's youth system, is that young players were afraid to report their abuse because they were terrified to do anything that might jeopardise their career. Creating an atmosphere in which people who have been abused are mocked, scoffed at and disbelieved as a matter of course (as they have been in the last few posts in this thread, on the basis of absolutely nothing whatsoever except prejudice) has very predictable consequences in raising the costs for real victims to come forward and inform people of their abuse. 

None of this means that MacDonald, Beardsley or anybody else is automatically guilty of bullying, and that's why it's important to have thorough investigations that take allegations seriously, which give people the opportunity to clear their name if they did nothing wrong, or be found out if they did. 

If you want to create an environment in which children have to shut up and suffer in silence through abuse, you're going about it exactly the right way. If you don't, it might be time to reconsider whether mocking kids as wusses is going to help. 

(Sorry if this post comes across as harsh, but this is a serious issue.)

 

1 hour ago, briny_ear said:

Great post HanoiVillan. Just to add, it’s wrong to use the example of military training to try to argue that young people are going soft. Military trainers have a duty of care just as much as anyone else. Just look at what happened at Deepcut to understand what happens when this duty of care is failed.

I apologise if this came off as ignorant, brash, or insensitive it was tongue in cheek but maybe in poor taste.

I've been dealing with these sorts of debates on other forums and I think I am just a bit fed up by how nothing issues are sometimes sensationalised.

I realise there is a thin line between the 2.

Sexual abuse and the like is an entirely different situation although I obviously understand you are speaking in reference to creating a climate in which people are unwilling to come forward for fear of being mocked etc.

On the flip side though, do you not see how we are also in danger of creating a climate where even competition and "Hard training/discipline" will soon be labeled abuse?

Do you not realise that some folk will in turn mask a lack of work ethic, mental toughness or a willingness to learn behind allegations like these?

This is obviously a very complicated matter and I perhaps could have I articulated it better but it is a tricky one all round.

Surely there must be a middle ground?

Edited May 12, 2018 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[OutByEaster?]

It's a very difficult balance I think.

Being a professional footballer isn't like most jobs - youth coaches are tasked with preparing these young men to be abused once a week by 30,000 people. There's a mental toughness you need in order to deal with that without losing your rag, without lashing out at the person next to you, without forgetting to do your job - learning to focus and concentrate under extremely tough mental circumstances is a key to success as a professional footballer.

There's a lad played with my nephew who had a trial at the Albion - from the moment the trialists arrived, they were shouted at, nothing abusive, just "quicker", "move", "what's that?" that sort of thing, barked at them, loudly, under a constant atmosphere of pressure. Some of the kids were in tears at the end. One of the parents was talking to the coaches afterwards and the coach said it was deliberate, they wanted to see who had the mental toughness to deal with it. The boy was nine.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that it's okay to physically assault a child, it doesn't mean that any child should be subject to abuse, but it does create a fine line, a difficult balance between preparing these young men for life as a pro and causing them harm.

I'm in my forties and there are sixteen year old footballers at this club I know the names of; that I have expectations of. The pressure on these young men is huge. There's a degree to which their mental conditioning will decide their success. It's not easy and it's not going to be - the problem is that the rest of life isn't like this any more - the world has changed, it doesn't happen, where I work or where you work, or in other walks of life, or even in other sports - football is an anachronism that's left an environment unlike any other for young people - an environment that's not pleasant and objectively often isn't right.

The problem at the end of the day is us. Until such time as we're all prepared to sit and applaud the opposition for their good play, or offer only words of encouragement for Gabby on a fat day, there isn't going to be an environment that resembles a normal workplace - and so there isn't going to be a normal path to get there. 

Good youth coaches get the balance right. I think we're getting that right at the moment with Delaney and MacDonald, I think we had it right with MacDonald and Bryan Jones - kids need a good cop and a bad cop in order to develop properly for what lies ahead - I don't think that's easy to achieve - even the most experienced coaches get it wrong and when it's wrong, it's not just the wrong thing for a football club or the wrong thing for a youth player, it's plain old fashioned wrong.

 

 

[bobzy]

4 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

On the flip side though, do you not see how we are also in danger of creating a climate where even competition and "Hard training/discipline" will soon be labeled abuse?

Do you not realise that some folk will in turn mask a lack of work ethic, mental toughness or a willingness to learn behind allegations like these?

If you can’t see the difference between a tough training regime and actually bullying people, then there’s probably not that much discussion to be had tbh.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

If you can’t see the difference between a tough training regime and actually bullying people, then there’s probably not that much discussion to be had tbh.

As you have pretty much skipped over the whole 'what do they consider bullying?" part. ( Which seems to be of subjective opinion) Then I agree.

[bobzy]

58 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

As you have pretty much skipped over the whole 'what do they consider bullying?" part. ( Which seems to be of subjective opinion) Then I agree.

I can’t see that anywhere in your post, so no?

But even if it was there, you’ve jumped to conclusions that an allegation of bullying would relate to hard training or military-sequence regimes. Why? I mean, that isn’t bullying.

[VILLAMARV]

In charge for Millwall away then.

I still have nightmares about that Newcastle away game....

Anyway UTV

[sne]

8 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

In charge for Millwall away then.

I still have nightmares about that Newcastle away game....

Anyway UTV

Can't we have Delaney do it instead?

Please!

[jim]

Hopefully only in charge for one game and if he gets the same response he had against West Ham after O Neill it would be great.

[Dr_Pangloss]

Return of the Mac!