K-Mac

[Grasshopper]

 

[HanoiVillan]

What on Earth were the club playing at here?

To be honest, I think this is quite a serious story and I find the clubs actions pretty unsatisfactory. Why wasn't he suspended during the period when he was under investigation? He was under investigation, lest we forget, for breaching safeguarding rules while in a role in which he is regularly responsible for the pastoral care of minors. I see people talking about 'toughness' and 'the mental side of the game' and 'the nature of academies' but I don't think any of that carries any legal water, and I don't think pointing to the nature of academies is particularly useful when only this academy is under scrutiny for a 'toxic culture' of bullying. 

Those defending the club here would also do well to consider what this ongoing story might look like to parents of promising young players with an offer from Villa and A.N.Other Academy as well. 

[briny_ear]

12 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

I absolutely agree. Whilst genuine bullying is never acceptable, it is very subjective and people’s characters, and therefore reactions to situations, are all different. A mate of mine owns a recruitment agency was telling me how incredibly sensitive many kids, just out of education, are these days. They go through school and uni being told that they’re fabulous and that they never do badly or fail. Then they enter the real world and oh dear it’s all a big shock. He’s had kids turn into a blubbering mess just because he’s told them that they didn’t get a job. 

I don’t mean to make this sound like a, “When I were a lad”, speech but it becomes harder these days to differentiate between a case of bullying or some kid who thinks he’s having a bad day because he had to put his own milk on his cornflakes. 

No, it’s not subjective at all. It’s very simple. If someone feels they are being bullied, they are being bullied and you are not going to get the best out of them.

Any youth coach needs to be very sensitive to the very different reactions that young kids can have to coaching styles and should show their wards respect. They have a duty of care and that phrase is more than just a slogan

Edited December 9, 2017 by briny_ear

[DaveAV1]

7 hours ago, briny_ear said:

No, it’s not subjective at all. It’s very simple. If someone feels they are being bullied, they are being bullied and you are not going to get the best out of them.

Any youth coach needs to be very sensitive to the very different reactions that young kids can have to coaching styles and should show their wards respect. They have a duty of care and that phrase is more than just a slogan

What I mean is, that it is subjective in respect to how different characters react to different things. In a separate post I spoke about how Ron Saunders recognised how different players had personalities that needed different approaches. Brian Little needed an arm around him but Tony Morley needed a kick up the arse for example.

I’m pretty sure both players would  back up what Ron said. In fact Tony Morley tells a great story about falling out with Saunders. Ron had been on his back all week, so when Tony scored in the next game, he ran past the bench giving him the Vs. He immediately regretted it and thought he’d be in for a right bollocking. But Saunders said nothing and carried on like it had never happened. A couple of weeks later Morley discovered he’d had two weeks wages docked! Saunders understood people and treated them in a way to get the best out of them. 

I detest bullying of any kind. Some people will be cowed by a telling off, others will react in a positive way. It’s recognising that in each individual that is an important skill, particularly where young people are concerned. Some coaches may not be able to recognise that and need guidance. Others are just downright bullies and need sacking. Equally it has to be recognised that mollycoddling of young people does nobody any favours. 

[bobzy]

18 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Bullying, such a subjective issue.

One person's bullying is another's toughening up, out of context and generally speaking, I think kids are mollycoddled too much today, though it's easy for me to state as I don't have children.

We have kids topping themselves these days because someone didn't 'like' their latest instagram update so to say there are varying degrees of sensitivity is an understatement.

Does it matter? If someone feels they are being abused in any way, shape or form (be it bullying, racism, sexism etc) then it’s happening.

I find that article disturbing - the club has apparently shown completely the wrong attitude here. If an independent investigation is finding the allegations to be substantive, then something is clearly wrong here. 

(As an aside, your last point seems to be at a “how pathetic, it’s only Instagram” angle - I think social media pressure is the biggest mental issue under, say, 30 year olds face. It’s incredibly scary)

[Demitri_C]

I am not excusing k macs behaviour if the allegation are true. But if you can't handle some swearing or aggressive behaviour how the hell are you going to make it as a footballer? When you go to away games esp local derbies the abuse you can receive is ten times worse

[mattyvilla]

34 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I am not excusing k macs behaviour if the allegation are true. But if you can't handle some swearing or aggressive behaviour how the hell are you going to make it as a footballer? When you go to away games esp local derbies the abuse you can receive is ten times worse

Essentially most of the players  at the academy are children , aggressive behaviour does nothing whatsoever to help develop them

Edited December 9, 2017 by mattyvilla

[AvfcRigo82]

Really shocking to read this about Kevin Mac.

Will be interesting to see the conclusion on this but I hope he is not guilty as it is unacceptable behaviour on any platform.

[bobzy]

45 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I am not excusing k macs behaviour if the allegation are true. But if you can't handle some swearing or aggressive behaviour how the hell are you going to make it as a footballer? When you go to away games esp local derbies the abuse you can receive is ten times worse

Is all that’s happened “some swearing”?

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 hours ago, bobzy said:

Does it matter? If someone feels they are being abused in any way, shape or form (be it bullying, racism, sexism etc) then it’s happening.

I find that article disturbing - the club has apparently shown completely the wrong attitude here. If an independent investigation is finding the allegations to be substantive, then something is clearly wrong here. 

(As an aside, your last point seems to be at a “how pathetic, it’s only Instagram” angle - I think social media pressure is the biggest mental issue under, say, 30 year olds face. It’s incredibly scary)

Agree. I'm relieved it wasn't around when I was a kid and I worry about how to handle it when my daughter gets older.  Its a big problem.

[Michael118]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

I am not excusing k macs behaviour if the allegation are true. But if you can't handle some swearing or aggressive behaviour how the hell are you going to make it as a footballer? When you go to away games esp local derbies the abuse you can receive is ten times worse

I don't see the connection. It's one thing to be sworn at by opposition supporters at a local derby when it's expected and it's 'the norm' and part of what comes with being a professional footballer and it's another thing completely to be bullied by someone who's in a position of power and who's in a developmental role and supposed to be displaying a duty of care. It takes a lot more strength and courage to stand up to that kind of behaviour than it does to tolerate it.

[Demitri_C]

2 hours ago, Michael118 said:

I don't see the connection. It's one thing to be sworn at by opposition supporters at a local derby when it's expected and it's 'the norm' and part of what comes with being a professional footballer and it's another thing completely to be bullied by someone who's in a position of power and who's in a developmental role and supposed to be displaying a duty of care. It takes a lot more strength and courage to stand up to that kind of behaviour than it does to tolerate it.

Yea like i dont at all mate. Like i said if it is the kind we are assuming he should be sacked. But like i said your gonna get 10x worse from the stands

[bannedfromHandV]

7 hours ago, bobzy said:

Does it matter? If someone feels they are being abused in any way, shape or form (be it bullying, racism, sexism etc) then it’s happening.

I find that article disturbing - the club has apparently shown completely the wrong attitude here. If an independent investigation is finding the allegations to be substantive, then something is clearly wrong here. 

(As an aside, your last point seems to be at a “how pathetic, it’s only Instagram” angle - I think social media pressure is the biggest mental issue under, say, 30 year olds face. It’s incredibly scary)

Does it matter? 

In some respects no but if society pandered to every single persons individual needs nothing would ever be achieved. 

I am not defending bullying, all I'm saying is people can have wildly varying levels of resilience and when you're dealing with large groups of people its kind of tough to find a consistent approach that keeps everyone happy. 

[bobzy]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Does it matter? 

In some respects no but if society pandered to every single persons individual needs nothing would ever be achieved. 

I am not defending bullying, all I'm saying is people can have wildly varying levels of resilience and when you're dealing with large groups of people its kind of tough to find a consistent approach that keeps everyone happy. 

Society doesn’t pander to every single persons individual needs.

If someone feels they’re being abused, then they’re being abused. It really is that simple. 

[DCJonah]

2 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Yea like i dont at all mate. Like i said if it is the kind we are assuming he should be sacked. But like i said your gonna get 10x worse from the stands

This is a ridiculous comparison. As a young kid, this is the person in charge of your development and to some extent your care while away from your family. He's also the person who's decisions can make or break your career. 

Nothing like random strangers shouting a few things once you have become a professional. 

[BigJim]

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

Society doesn’t pander to every single persons individual needs.

If someone feels they’re being abused, then they’re being abused. It really is that simple. 

Hang on a minute. If I say that I am being abused by someone's posts on here, does that mean they should be banned? Of course not. There have to be objective standards to measure this sort of thing. There's a disturbing trend in society in general where everyone wants to be a victim. This can lead to crazy laws being drafted which say somebody only has to make a complaint, and that is practically sufficient of itself to convict the supposed perpetrator. Sheer madness.

I have every sympathy with this young man if he feels he's been treated unfairly, but equally I have a lot of respect for K Mac based on what I have read about him.  It may be he wasn't able to deal properly with this particular youth. In that case he should have that pointed out to him and perhaps have some extra training in dealing with the very sensitive. But no way should he be hounded out of a role he appears to have performed so admirably for so long.

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by BigJim

[bobzy]

4 hours ago, BigJim said:

Hang on a minute. If I say that I am being abused by someone's posts on here, does that mean they should be banned? Of course not. There have to be objective standards to measure this sort of thing. There's a disturbing trend in society in general where everyone wants to be a victim. This can lead to crazy laws being drafted which say somebody only has to make a complaint, and that is practically sufficient of itself to convict the supposed perpetrator. Sheer madness.

I have every sympathy with this young man if he feels he's been treated unfairly, but equally I have a lot of respect for K Mac based on what I have read about him...

 

Are you deliberately ignoring the independent investigaton that was done which found bullying existed? It wasn’t just “I feel bad”.

 

Also lol at “there’s a disturbing trend in society in general where everyone wants to be a victim”.  Seriously, what the **** is this drivel?

[Risso]

5 hours ago, BigJim said:

Hang on a minute. If I say that I am being abused by someone's posts on here, does that mean they should be banned? Of course not. There have to be objective standards to measure this sort of thing. There's a disturbing trend in society in general where everyone wants to be a victim. This can lead to crazy laws being drafted which say somebody only has to make a complaint, and that is practically sufficient of itself to convict the supposed perpetrator. Sheer madness.

 

I'd be interested to hear an example of those 'crazy laws' and when somebody has been convicted after somebody merely makes a complaint.

[DCJonah]

14 hours ago, BigJim said:

Hang on a minute. If I say that I am being abused by someone's posts on here, does that mean they should be banned? Of course not. There have to be objective standards to measure this sort of thing. There's a disturbing trend in society in general where everyone wants to be a victim. This can lead to crazy laws being drafted which say somebody only has to make a complaint, and that is practically sufficient of itself to convict the supposed perpetrator. Sheer madness.

I have every sympathy with this young man if he feels he's been treated unfairly, but equally I have a lot of respect for K Mac based on what I have read about him.  It may be he wasn't able to deal properly with this particular youth. In that case he should have that pointed out to him and perhaps have some extra training in dealing with the very sensitive. But no way should he be hounded out of a role he appears to have performed so admirably for so long.

 

An independent enquiry was held and supported the claims. Why would you ignore that?

[gilbertoAVFC]

Did anything ever come of these bullying claims?