blandy Posted May 13, 2021 Moderator Share Posted May 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, sidcow said: But this experience is manifestly different to the type of Union action I was talking about from the 70's at Longbridge. Sure. It was a reply to @Geniesaying "On Unions I think they do good and bad, but overall probably bad. BL in the 70s was a mess. Appalling management, some shocking Union stuff too. Complete mess. Both at fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted May 13, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted May 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, blandy said: Sure. It was a reply to @Geniesaying "On Unions I think they do good and bad, but overall probably bad. BL in the 70s was a mess. Appalling management, some shocking Union stuff too. Complete mess. Both at fault. Of course any conflict is easier to resolve when there are fairly level headed sensible people in charge be that employee/employer relations, countries trying to negotiate trade deals, factions trying to avoid war and posters v tyrannical power crazed mods 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 (edited) Not sure if this is 100% true, but I remember being told that in Germany they do these things differently. The Company and the Union submit their pay offer/demand to an independent party who review both and choose which is to be implemented. No negotiation. This method forces both sides not to try and take the piss because it would mean they’d “lose” the decision. It meant both the offer and demand were usually very similar. Edited May 13, 2021 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted May 13, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted May 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, Genie said: Not sure if this is 100% true, but I remember being told that in Germany they do these things differently. The Company and the Union submit their pay offer/demand to an independent party who review both and choose which is to be implemented. No negotiation. This method forces both sides not to try and take the piss because it would mean they’d “lose” the decision. It meant both the offer and demand were usually very similar. Hmmmmmmm. Sounds too much like the Scotch way of buying houses to me. I love a good Gazump me. For that reason I am out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 We have works councils, a group of elected employees who have a say in everything For example me getting a job... My boss had to show them my CV and prove there was no German applicant who was better They've also reviewed stuff like short working during corona (our furlough) when corona broke out last year my company spent 2 months negotiating it with my work council meaning that I only actually had 6 weeks of it My company can't do anything major in terms of HR without their approval, so that would include the pay offer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 Imagine the horror of being a classic rock radio deejay, playing the same old tunes over and over again, day after day. "Sultans of Swing" doesn't get more interesting with each additional spin. In fact, it gets worse. Much worse. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted May 13, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 hour ago, maqroll said: Imagine the horror of being a classic rock radio deejay, playing the same old tunes over and over again, day after day. "Sultans of Swing" doesn't get more interesting with each additional spin. In fact, it gets worse. Much worse. You ain't seen nothing yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted May 13, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 hour ago, maqroll said: Imagine the horror of being a classic rock radio deejay, playing the same old tunes over and over again, day after day. "Sultans of Swing" doesn't get more interesting with each additional spin. In fact, it gets worse. Much worse. I loved SoS when it came out. Saw them do it live, great. But yes, I've heard it quite enough now, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 2 hours ago, sidcow said: But this experience is manifestly different to the type of Union action I was talking about from the 70's at Longbridge. Red Robbo was linked to in excess of 500 strikes. I refuse to believe that so many strikes were a) justified and b) did anything to help the overall health of the company. 523 walkouts in 30 months. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted May 13, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted May 13, 2021 27 minutes ago, Xela said: 523 walkouts in 30 months. wow, that is not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 2 hours ago, mjmooney said: I loved SoS when it came out. Saw them do it live, great. But yes, I've heard it quite enough now, thanks. For the record, I think he's an amazing guitar player and I had a couple of their records. I'd be interested in hearing other music by them, just not the corporate formula stuff. Enough already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, maqroll said: For the record, I think he's an amazing guitar player and I had a couple of their records. I'd be interested in hearing other music by them, just not the corporate formula stuff. Enough already. I am not a fan and brothers in arms highlights a dreadful period in music, that said I would die on a hill sticking up for romeo and juliet. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 20 hours ago, Genie said: On Unions I think they do good and bad, but overall probably bad. I’m trying to express my reaction to this statement without being rude. I’m finding it difficult. It’s just historically illiterate. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, El Zen said: I’m trying to express my reaction to this statement without being rude. I’m finding it difficult. It’s just historically illiterate. I did put some more justification in other posts. It’s not an all encompassing opinion, just my own perspective of where I work. Where I am now they are doing their bit to protect a lot of jobs at risk which is great, but I think the reason the business has to slash costs is at least partly to do with them taking too much out of the business in previous years in well above inflation pay rises. Edited May 14, 2021 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 2 hours ago, El Zen said: I’m trying to express my reaction to this statement without being rude. I’m finding it difficult. It’s just historically illiterate. Yep. It obviously depends on which side of the table you sit on, but even from a bigger picture or macro point view it's an argument Reagan's destruction of unions have caused a world of trouble that extends to this day. Domestically and globally. There's a book from Clinton's minister of civil something. He's called Ben Reich or something. He goes into detail on this from a more popular science PoV. There's even a flix thing about it. It's hard to read that and not see the value of unions. Shit, it's hard to be employed ANY WHERE and not see the huge value of unions. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted May 14, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted May 14, 2021 (edited) **** me this debate is like being in the match thread when Kienan Davis is playing. It's not you love Unions or you are a against them. They've done immense things for millions of workers and no one is suggesting they should be destroyed. But no one and no thing is above criticism. Your duty to your members is to protect them and try and get a fair deal for them. That has to be balanced against helping the employer to remain agile, competitive and able to go about its business because ultimately your members will have no employment whatsoever if the company fails. To immediately jump down the throat of anyone who has the temerity to suggest some have been over zealous at times is just wrong. It absolutely should be a partnership and I for one wouldn't be happy if I was being called out for petty things, or even major things where I could see the employer was in trouble and needed to take action to survive. There are too many people looking at this as a black or white issue. Some damage has undoubtedly been done in the past as well as good. To express that doesn't mean you're in with the Haterz and want Davis shipped off to Crewe instead of being handed the No 9 shirt next season. Edited May 14, 2021 by sidcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Well that’s a little better. You’re original posts were a little more one sided. In return, I’m willing to concede that not all bosses are on the take to maximise their personal wealth at the expense of the local community and environment even if that means employing solicitors and accountants specifically to keep them just the right side of legal, or failing that, illegal but difficult to catch. When they could have spent that money just being nicer to the people that actually pay some tax and generate the income. Not all bosses make their employees piss in the back of the van for fear of being docked money. Not all bosses are currently sacking the workforce to re employ them on worse terms. Not all bosses coached the staff to vote leave, and then left. Not all bosses are using zero hours contracts as a way of ‘keeping people keen’. Not all bosses have a ‘union troublemaker blacklist’ they secretly share. I feel we’ve all made a lot of progress here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 (edited) Nevermind this post. It was a good post. Now it's not. Edited May 14, 2021 by KenjiOgiwara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted May 14, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted May 14, 2021 The past day or so, I pop in here, see that the discussion is about unions and I haven’t got anything to contribute so depart. But each time it’s resulted in me having “you won’t get me, I’m part of the union” stuck as an ear worm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted May 14, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted May 14, 2021 10 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Nevermind this post. It was a good post. Now it's not. Four syllables short As a haiku it won't do You must try harder 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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