General Chat

[blandy]

On 10/05/2021 at 12:34, GeorgeVilla82 said:

Shimla Pinks

Was good. More expensive than a normal curry house, but really nice food. Think it was one of several - kind of an upmarket chain, or small group.

[Davkaus]

On 02/05/2021 at 20:00, theboyangel said:

Slightly Villa related and unsure if posted elsewhere.

Purity Ale are offering a ‘free’ 5l keg of Aston Villa Pale Ale (just pay for the postage)

https://puritybrewing.com/product/villa-keg-offer/

have no idea if it’s any good!

Got mine today, thanks for posting this

 

[Genie]

11 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Got mine today, thanks for posting this

 

Check the date, mine was end of June. 

[Xela]

11 minutes ago, Genie said:

Check the date, mine was end of June. 

He'll be halfway through it by now. 

[sidcow]

1 hour ago, Xela said:

Does everyone in Germany drive a German car? I can't imagine they'd buy a Citroen or Renault. 

Fantastic car heritage over there. You look at how the British car industry died and can see how appallingly it was managed over the years and compare it to what happens in Germany. Light years ahead of us. 

I once had a massive argument with my friends, Husband and Wife, she a teacher and him working at The Austin.  He used to often talk about the massive amount of perks he had including frequently being paid not to work*

After they went bust I said that I hoped Red Robbo was proud now that EVERYONE had lost their jobs. What do you mean? I was asked. 

Well all those strikes just made Rover inefficient and uncompetitive whilst the French and Germans and Americans were concentrating on making cars better and more efficiently. 

I was told it wasn't the strikes but bad management that had ruined Rover.  Aaagggh.. Can't you see? Everytime the management tried to change anything they were blocked at every avenue? Blank faces. 

* After he got a new job at some French engineering company he sat in the pub and made a big list of all the things he now didn't get anymore.  I said "Remind me again why Rover went bust?" 

Now he works at Severn Trent, a virtual monopoly company and gets ludicrous perks again the lucky bastard. I've often thought I should have gone and worked for the Council or something. The argument was always that you got better perks but worse pay.  I'm willing to bet that pay gap isn't there anymore. 

[chrisp65]

It’s certainly an awful lot better for the workers now the unions aren’t so powerful.

Freed from the tyranny of pensions and regular hours.

Freed from having to worry about whether the bosses will get taxed on that million pound bonus for that outsourcing idea they had.

Shitty old lazy old commie working class.

 

 

[sidcow]

8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

It’s certainly an awful lot better for the workers now the unions aren’t so powerful.

Freed from the tyranny of pensions and regular hours.

Freed from having to worry about whether the bosses will get taxed on that million pound bonus for that outsourcing idea they had.

Shitty old lazy old commie working class.

 

 

[Ingram85]

12 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I once had a massive argument with my friends, Husband and Wife, she a teacher and him working at The Austin.  He used to often talk about the massive amount of perks he had including frequently being paid not to work*

After they went bust I said that I hoped Red Robbo was proud now that EVERYONE had lost their jobs. What do you mean? I was asked. 

Well all those strikes just made Rover inefficient and uncompetitive whilst the French and Germans and Americans were concentrating on making cars better and more efficiently. 

I was told it wasn't the strikes but bad management that had ruined Rover.  Aaagggh.. Can't you see? Everytime the management tried to change anything they were blocked at every avenue? Blank faces. 

* After he got a new job at some French engineering company he sat in the pub and made a big list of all the things he now didn't get anymore.  I said "Remind me again why Rover went bust?" 

Now he works at Severn Trent, a virtual monopoly company and gets ludicrous perks again the lucky bastard. I've often thought I should have gone and worked for the Council or something. The argument was always that you got better perks but worse pay.  I'm willing to bet that pay gap isn't there anymore. 

I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or not? Are you saying Rover wasn’t mismanaged into ruin? That it was the workers fault that it went bust? I’m asking as someone who grew up in Rednal, whose Dad worked at Rover since the mid 80’s until it closed, as did the dads of most kids I grew up with. It kept a whole community in existence around the longbridge area and what those in charge did along with the Chinese investors is something that will stay with me until I die. 

[Xela]

Not one to put words into @sidcow's mouth but I assume he was talking more about the constant strikes in the 70s. 

I don't think anyone involved with British Leyland, management or shop floor, covered themselves in glory during that period of time. 

[mjmooney]

21 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

It’s certainly an awful lot better for the workers now the unions aren’t so powerful.

Freed from the tyranny of pensions and regular hours.

Freed from having to worry about whether the bosses will get taxed on that million pound bonus for that outsourcing idea they had.

Shitty old lazy old commie working class.

 

[Genie]

Workers at my place had 2 emails from the Trade Union today.

1) They’ve made a pay claim for a substantial payrise and lump sum bonus

2) The business are looking to “displace” several hundred people. It included some questions to ask if you’re approached and to immediately adjourn the meeting if you’d like union representation.

Seems like both sides playing games.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Genie

[sidcow]

I've never worked in a unionised workplace but I've had a pension and regular hours in every job I've had. 

I understand fully that I've only probably enjoyed that because of past union action protecting workers rights elsewhere in the past.  I also fully appreciate that they perform a vital function. 

But there is surely a line to be drawn between genuinely protecting rights and strangling any innovation or change? 

I went to a school in Bournville and pretty much the parents of every kid in my school worked in Cadburys or The Rover and I fully understand the devastation.  I know lots of people who worked at The Rover too.  That conversation I alluded to earlier took place in The Fordrough pub in West Heath. 

The original comment made by @Xela was about the state of the UK car industry compared to Germany and yes I fully believe the seeds of destruction were sowed in the 70's.  You can't manage anything modernise and make improvements to working practices if whenever you try to do anything the whole place shuts down till you have to give in.  

We had an opportunity to modernise and globalise just like the French and Germans and that opportunity was lost.

The UK remains to this day less efficient in the workplace than most of our competitors in the Western world.  Obviously we're never going to compete with emerging economies but we should compete with others in the West far better than we do. 

Surely you have a responsibility to pick your fights and right genuine wrongs than to be going out on strike over and over and over. 

Any company which is paying staff higher wages than anywhere else, and paying people not to work and giving perks way beyond what anyone else in the same business is paying is doomed to failure.  I mean Christ, how many times over would Rover have gone bust by now if it somehow had survived in 2005.   Times have got tougher and tougher.  It was doomed for years before it finally went under. 

 

I have a bit of an interest in the new developments around Birmingham.  I see parallels with The Victorian Society.  Now Ironically I totally agree with their purpose and aims and I think it's really important to maintain as much of our Victorian heritage as we can.  I'm totally on their side. 

However they raise objections to pretty much EVERY single development which goes on in Birmingham just basically being a complete pain in the arse for every developer and adding cost to every application. 

I just think why? If a developer wants to knock down a Victorian building or build a monstrous modern development next door to a bit of important heritage, go ahead, fill your boots.  But by objecting to everything you're just being a pain in the arse and probably actualy losing credibility to carry out the actual things you're supposed to be working towards. 

As I've said I actually agree with their purpose and if they weren't such a bunch of dicks I might actually become a member and contribute financially. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by sidcow

[sidcow]

I've just realised an error in my post above.   I have worked in a unionised workplace, and I probably only actually worked there because it was unionised. 

Between leaving college and starting a proper job I had 2 weeks working at Curzon Street Royal Mail depot (now gone and to be replaced by the HS2 station). 

They had nothing for me to do.  Someone was on holiday and the manager told me that he had a budget to get a temp in when someone was on holiday and he was buggered if he wasn't going to use it. 

I ended up drawing 6 months worth of lines in books (they had blank books they needed lines in.  Not sure why they didn't just buy books with lines in) making tea, helping out the odd job man who was nothing to do with the department I was employed in and being told to take at least 2 hours for lunch, I assume just to get me out of their hair. 

I did nothing whatsoever of the job the guy who was on holiday did. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by sidcow

[rodders0223]

Dilemma. Like a tit I've booked a hotel check in on the 16th. Obviously the penny has dropped check in until the 17th is only essential business travel only.

Are they going to intergotate my ass if I check in on the 16th

[Genie]

14 minutes ago, rodders0223 said:

Dilemma. Like a tit I've booked a hotel check in on the 16th. Obviously the penny has dropped check in until the 17th is only essential business travel only.

Are they going to intergotate my ass if I check in on the 16th

I think they might, yes. 

If you’re going with your other half then you’re filming an adult movie in your room for your website.

 

[Genie]

On Unions I think they do good and bad, but overall probably bad.

From what I’ve seen when the going is good they demand too much in return (massive pay rises and bonuses). I’ve benefitted from these.

Then, when there’s clouds on the horizon the business cannot sustain the wage bill. Of course the Union are on hand to fight the workers corner and protect as many jobs as possible, but my feeling is that those jobs would probably be less at risk if they hadn’t held the company to ransom in the good times.

[Ingram85]

Some interesting takes on unions in here. No wonder the government are giggling away in private every time workers get their rights and conditions eroded just that little bit more each time.

[blandy]

50 minutes ago, Genie said:

On Unions I think they do good and bad, but overall probably bad.

From what I’ve seen when the going is good they demand too much in return (massive pay rises and bonuses). I’ve benefitted from these.

Then, when there’s clouds on the horizon the business cannot sustain the wage bill. Of course the Union are on hand to fight the workers corner and protect as many jobs as possible, but my feeling is that those jobs would probably be less at risk if they hadn’t held the company to ransom in the good times.

I'd say the exact opposite.

I'd say (from my experience) that when the going is good the Company will always try to play things down - here's some examples. The part of the business I work in does military aircraft. If we did well, the company would say "yes, it's true Military has done well, but civil is struggling , so no pay rise". And if both did well, then it'd be "well you did well, but not as well as the civil side, so we need to pare down what we can give you".

The only time we ever get or got anything decent was when the Union members decided to stand up for ourselves. And that's in a company where the relations between Union and management are really, genuinely, good to excellent.

Same with protecting jobs. Another example, the Company was always keen on employing sub-contractors to fill "short term skills shortages" and then these subbies would be kept on for years, raking it in (good luck to them, for that), but it meant they were effectively like double wages permanent staff, taking the jobs that "normal" workers couldn't move in to - we can't promote you to that role, because Fred the subbie is filling that (and has done for the past 10 years). The Union managed to get it so that sub-con contracts would be the ones shed, when workload dropped, and so that they couldn't do more than (I think) 3 years - they are after all "short term" skills gap fillers. SO that means young apprentices and graduates get the chance to learn skills and improve. Left to the management, that would not happen to the same degree.

Pandemic. Union's been excellent (as has the Co.) making sure workers get the stuff they need to stay safe, whether at work on site, or people WFH.

So my experience of my workplace Union over 31 years has been wholly positive and beneficial. We've not been on strike in that time, but have had to do a few work to rule type things to fight for stuff. Like for example the Company saying "we've got more work to do than people to do it - we need you all to work overtime every week" alongside "no, no pay rise" - the Union said "hold on, we're not seeing the logic here" "well that's the way it is"  - "OK. No-one do any overtime, don't work in your dinner break - answering the phone etc. don't assist with management initiatives, don't do anything outside what's in your contract".

 I've simplified some of all that a bit, but like I say, Union  = very much beneficial.

 

[sidcow]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

I'd say the exact opposite.

I'd say (from my experience) that when the going is good the Company will always try to play things down - here's some examples. The part of the business I work in does military aircraft. If we did well, the company would say "yes, it's true Military has done well, but civil is struggling , so no pay rise". And if both did well, then it'd be "well you did well, but not as well as the civil side, so we need to pare down what we can give you".

The only time we ever get or got anything decent was when the Union members decided to stand up for ourselves. And that's in a company where the relations between Union and management are really, genuinely, good to excellent.

Same with protecting jobs. Another example, the Company was always keen on employing sub-contractors to fill "short term skills shortages" and then these subbies would be kept on for years, raking it in (good luck to them, for that), but it meant they were effectively like double wages permanent staff, taking the jobs that "normal" workers couldn't move in to - we can't promote you to that role, because Fred the subbie is filling that (and has done for the past 10 years). The Union managed to get it so that sub-con contracts would be the ones shed, when workload dropped, and so that they couldn't do more than (I think) 3 years - they are after all "short term" skills gap fillers. SO that means young apprentices and graduates get the chance to learn skills and improve. Left to the management, that would not happen to the same degree.

Pandemic. Union's been excellent (as has the Co.) making sure workers get the stuff they need to stay safe, whether at work on site, or people WFH.

So my experience of my workplace Union over 31 years has been wholly positive and beneficial. We've not been on strike in that time, but have had to do a few work to rule type things to fight for stuff. Like for example the Company saying "we've got more work to do than people to do it - we need you all to work overtime every week" alongside "no, no pay rise" - the Union said "hold on, we're not seeing the logic here" "well that's the way it is"  - "OK. No-one do any overtime, don't work in your dinner break - answering the phone etc. don't assist with management initiatives, don't do anything outside what's in your contract".

 I've simplified some of all that a bit, but like I say, Union  = very much beneficial.

 

But this experience is manifestly different to the type of Union action I was talking about from the 70's at Longbridge. 

Red Robbo was linked to in excess of 500 strikes.  I refuse to believe that so many strikes were a) justified and b) did anything to help the overall health of the company. 

Fight the good fight but don't choose to fight for no good reason. 

The fact is the British Motor industry pretty much no longer exists yet France, Germany, Japan, USA all have flourishing motor companies and you can't just blame that on bad management. 

[Genie]

5 minutes ago, blandy said:

I've simplified some of all that a bit, but like I say, Union  = very much beneficial.

It’s certainly not clear cut, I’ve fallen to the side of probably not beneficial overall but it doesn’t mean they are all bad.

I was lucky to join my company before a period of great results. 
These are the annual pay rises I’ve had.

5% (2 weeks after joining)

5.95%
8% (promotion)

4.5%
2.95%
4.25%
3%
3.5%
4.4%
4%

The last pay rise was July 2018 and it’s been 3 years of losses, restructuring and thousands of jobs gone, more in progress and more to follow later in the year.

Whilst I’ve enjoyed those excellent pay awards I was always concerned just how sustainable it was for a big company to agree to them.

 I do wonder had there been a more sensible, long term approach to remuneration of the staff if things would be better now?