Pau Torres

[allani]

7 hours ago, CosmicVillan said:

It worries me how things will pan out over the season, I think that's 3 goals now you could argue Pau has cost us.  I'm pretty sure Mings made plenty of mistakes as well but his were mostly down to being cocky and overplaying whereas Pau's seem to be getting outfought and outmuscled. At least when Mings cut out the stupid Cruyf turns on the edge of his own box he still had the raw pace , height and physicality to match up with the best attacking talent. I don't don't see those raw ingredients with Pau and I am not sure the benefits of his passing attributes will outweight what we've lost in that position.

Unai has earned our complete trust so if he thinks he's the best man for the job then who are we to argue but Pau just doesn't pass the eye test for me when defending one on one at the moment. 

And how many goals that we've scored has Pau been heavily involved in?  Just against Palace he played a brilliant ball into Diaby for the goal that was then disallowed because Diaby moved 0.02 seconds too soon.  His confidence on the ball also dragged the Palace defensive players out of position so that he could play the ball into Tielemans who then played in Ollie for the decisive penalty.  Over his first few appearances I think that you can just as easily argue that he's played a significant role in at least 3 goals that we've scored.  Pau wasn't bought to reduce the number of goals we concede - he was bought to help us improve our attacking threat.  The issue is that we've lost our strongest defensive player / leader who would have helped cover some of Pau's weaknesses.  Comparing a defensive partnership of Pau and Konsa with a partnership of Mings and Konsa misses the point that Pau was signed to play with Mings.  The other thing to consider is that yesterday we could have been playing with a defensive pair of Konsa and Chambers or Konsa and Hause if we hadn't signed Pau.  Maybe if Mings had been injured before we signed Pau then Emery would have decided that he needed more of a defensive CB to replace him rather than a ball playing CB.  But in the meantime I think we just have to appreciate that we'll probably concede a few more goals this season but also score more.

[Risso]

Only a minor point, but why has he got Pau on his shirt, rather than Torres?  For me, if you're going to dick around with having anything other than your surname on your back then you need to make sure you're absolutely beyond reproach playing wise!  

[CosmicVillan]

2 hours ago, allani said:

And how many goals that we've scored has Pau been heavily involved in?  Just against Palace he played a brilliant ball into Diaby for the goal that was then disallowed because Diaby moved 0.02 seconds too soon.  His confidence on the ball also dragged the Palace defensive players out of position so that he could play the ball into Tielemans who then played in Ollie for the decisive penalty.  Over his first few appearances I think that you can just as easily argue that he's played a significant role in at least 3 goals that we've scored.  Pau wasn't bought to reduce the number of goals we concede - he was bought to help us improve our attacking threat.  The issue is that we've lost our strongest defensive player / leader who would have helped cover some of Pau's weaknesses.  Comparing a defensive partnership of Pau and Konsa with a partnership of Mings and Konsa misses the point that Pau was signed to play with Mings.  The other thing to consider is that yesterday we could have been playing with a defensive pair of Konsa and Chambers or Konsa and Hause if we hadn't signed Pau.  Maybe if Mings had been injured before we signed Pau then Emery would have decided that he needed more of a defensive CB to replace him rather than a ball playing CB.  But in the meantime I think we just have to appreciate that we'll probably concede a few more goals this season but also score more.

One assist against Hibs.

If he improves our attacking threat at the expense of our defense then all we've done is spend £30m to stand still 

Wasn't that why we bought Diego Carlos ?

[Steero113]

3 minutes ago, CosmicVillan said:

One assist against Hibs.

If he improves our attacking threat at the expense of our defense then all we've done is spend £30m to stand still 

Wasn't that why we bought Diego Carlos ?

We bought Carlos because he had a reputation for magic moments. 

[DaveAV1]

2 hours ago, allani said:

And how many goals that we've scored has Pau been heavily involved in?  Just against Palace he played a brilliant ball into Diaby for the goal that was then disallowed because Diaby moved 0.02 seconds too soon.  His confidence on the ball also dragged the Palace defensive players out of position so that he could play the ball into Tielemans who then played in Ollie for the decisive penalty.  Over his first few appearances I think that you can just as easily argue that he's played a significant role in at least 3 goals that we've scored.  Pau wasn't bought to reduce the number of goals we concede - he was bought to help us improve our attacking threat.  The issue is that we've lost our strongest defensive player / leader who would have helped cover some of Pau's weaknesses.  Comparing a defensive partnership of Pau and Konsa with a partnership of Mings and Konsa misses the point that Pau was signed to play with Mings.  The other thing to consider is that yesterday we could have been playing with a defensive pair of Konsa and Chambers or Konsa and Hause if we hadn't signed Pau.  Maybe if Mings had been injured before we signed Pau then Emery would have decided that he needed more of a defensive CB to replace him rather than a ball playing CB.  But in the meantime I think we just have to appreciate that we'll probably concede a few more goals this season but also score more.

It also can’t be ignored how important Paul with no L will be over the Christmas period. I’ll get my coat!

[The_Rev]

Nerdy stuff: 

 

 

[LondonLax]

7 hours ago, The_Rev said:

Nerdy stuff: 

 

 

He’s clearly the playmaker. We will have to find a way to mitigate his weaknesses because he’s clearly too important to Emrey’s system to be dropped. 

[Pinebro]

I think his passing makes up for the mistakes.

He is great and will get better.

Imagine him together with Mings.

[thunderball]

I can only imagine we fully intended to play with three at the back this season, with Mings playing with Torres and not one or the other - Mings as the defensive rock and Pau as a "quarterback" offering a more complete team rather than a stiff back line of stoppers. Mings injury, and now Carlos has really derailed that evolution. 

I dont get the hysteria about the "errors" or defensive weakness, we defend as a team, most goals are team failure - in nearly every goal that has been put on an alleged Torres error, you will find at least one other player at fault or contributing, or the system failing putting us under pressure. Emery wants us to be a fluid team of ball players, he is an important part of ensuring our defensive line is an effective component of a complete team and has an offensive capability. The days of 4 at the back as a defensive obstacle with a creative midfielder are well and truly dead.

If Torres coupled these numbers with the physicality being demanded, and turn of pace etc, he would be a £100m player.

[thunderball]

On 17/09/2023 at 10:34, The_Steve said:

Cash and Konsa gave Edouard way too much space for the goal following the cross which I feel is a bit lost in the discussion. Pau is pulled out of position but that’s the risk sometimes we take in the system, but he will adjust. 

Exactly, because it doesnt fit the popular narrative. If that was Mings we would be bemoaning Martinez's slip.

Its the same with the Scoboszlai goal from the corner - Torres get the blame but the team didnt defend the corner, and it was stunning shot too. I also thought Digne had a shocker against Liverpool, but criticism seemed to all fall to Torres because he happened to lose the ball early in the game and it was a pile on after that.

[TRO]

I think the usual chesnuts are coming out.....what does best mean?.....best defensivley or best Offensively, we need to be more specific.

Pau, is a class act, as a footballer, and for launching sorties, he is unparalled.....However, we are weaker defensively with out Mings...up to now.

We also compound the issue by playing, attacking full backs, and having a strong dominant CB in Carlos,out injured,  has compounded it even more.

I am not sure why, we decided to recruit another CB like Pau, who is renowned for being light weight physically, too.

It seems to me, the timing of the injuries, has distorted, some of the decision making.

Pau, for me is medium to long term, and he does need the right players, to accompany him.....but its clear he is a huge talent.

Unai has to find a way, for us to defend a bit better, while all these injuries thwart us......Their goal on Saturday, was a point in question.....but not all Pau's fault, Edouard could have been marshalled better.

[DJBOB]

I think we recruited Pau because Unai recognized that we weren't generating enough chances and tended to lose control of games easily. We were clinical and defensively solid, but to progress up the league - we needed to be ball dominant.

It would have been his plan, I'm sure, if Mings had been healthy to play a pretty dominant back line of Konsa-Mings-Torres and to fill in around them. There, you have the triumvirate of a dominant CB and two progressive ball carriers next to Mings.

Alas - here we are.

So I think we all need to get used to the idea of creating a lot of chances, but hiding behind our hands occasionally when the opponent is in transition. Could we have improved significantly in the transfer market? For me - as late as it was - we had little we could get in replace Mings without paying over and under the table for it. Other teams knew we were in bind and the organization, as a collective, made the call to go with the CB's we have until January/Summer next year.

[Stevo985]

It's 2023. This is what good defenders are like.

It's the same way John Stones was the butt of jokes for ages and people mocked Pep for buying defenders that make mistakes.

The mistakes are outweighed by what they bring to the team in possession

[Indigo]

 

[Zatman]

Main thing is the errors are fixable andI trust him and Unai will work on that. I think Mings next to him is the huge loss and maybe just needs organisation and leadership

Vidic for example struggled when he moved to the Premier League, so did Jaap Stam for a bit

[spiezels]

Him and mings together would have been absolutely colossal. 

[Condimentalist]

5 minutes ago, spiezels said:

Him and mings together will be absolutely colossal. 

Fixed that for you

[AVTuco]

It's hard sometimes, but I'm giving him time. 

[Xela]

3 hours ago, thunderball said:

If Torres coupled these numbers with the physicality being demanded, and turn of pace etc, he would be a £100m player.

If he was that player, he wouldn't be playing for us!  

[tinker]

He's improving defensively game by game as he becomes familiar with his team mates and the premier league. He's unfortunately been thrown in at the deep end with some injuries hampering a gentle introduction. He will be our best defender, i have no doubts, just needs time.