General officiating/rules

[villa4europe]

4 minutes ago, Mantis said:

Feel like the officiating has been particularly bad recently - coincidentally around the time we've played Chelsea, Newcastle and Man United. Wonder if we'll get better, or at least more balanced, officiating when we play the "lesser" teams in the coming weeks?

Nope 

It's bad for every team in every game, doesn't matter who is playing, the wording of the rules is bad and the refs are bad

from the highlights I saw Luton vs SU had 2 awful handball penalties 1 for each team, it's not a big team conspiracy thing it's a PGMOL aren't fit for purpose thing 

I'm guessing at least one of the next 3 games we'll have a ref where both teams boo him off 

[villa4europe]

10 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

For me it’s again mine and @villa4europe’s favourite topic - meaningful contact. 
 

there are pens constantly given where there is definite contact but it doesn’t correlate with how the player falls over. Here, even if it’s soft, the arm raise from Dubravka completely stops Ayowiyi being able to put his foot down and keep playing. It’s a natural reaction to the contact and is 100% a penalty. But PGMOL seem to want to continue to justify very soft penalties and not ‚re-ref the game’ only in specific circumstances. 

Seen it a few times now, other than kicking dubravkas arm or head off I'm not sure what he's supposed to do if I'm honest 

There's not necessarily a tonne of contact which puts him on his ass but at the same time the forest player is doing everything he can to stay up right and I think to be fair to him not boot the keeper, like you say he's not planting his left foot and he almost wiffs a shot on his right foot because he's pulling out of it so not to injure anyone (including himself) I think it is completely natural and the shittest thing about it is that's why he didn't get it, the fall makes perfect sense, he's stumbling because of the bump from botman and then goes over because the keeper gives him nowhere to put his feet 

We've seen this ourselves where Harry Kane happily ignored the ball and just shaped his run in to the path of martinez, the forest player should have done that, not bothered with a shot and moved to his left, clattering the keeper, injuring both players but at least winning a foul 

[kurtsimonw]

4 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

VAR has made it worse because it muddles the lines between decisions even further. Linesmen leave their flags down if it’s tight because it’ll be checked. Refs don’t give on field decisions because it’ll be checked. But only if a high var is reached. But they aren’t checked if they lead to something down the line. I have no idea how a linesman looking straight down the line doesn’t give offside today. How an apparently top ref gives a foul for Rashford’s ridiculous dive. It’s week after week; not just villa. And it’s exhausting. 

I do think offside is by far the toughest thing to officiate in football... but in open play. For a free kick it's actually unforgivable to get it wrong.

I'm genuinely startin to lose my love for the game. I watched 3 games this weekend, all of them decided by 1 goal, of of them a big decision has gone against the team that's lost by 1. They are literally deciding games, what's the point of actually playing football at that point?

[Mantis]

17 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

I do think offside is by far the toughest thing to officiate in football... but in open play. For a free kick it's actually unforgivable to get it wrong.

I'm genuinely startin to lose my love for the game. I watched 3 games this weekend, all of them decided by 1 goal, of of them a big decision has gone against the team that's lost by 1. They are literally deciding games, what's the point of actually playing football at that point?

I didn't celebrate Luiz's equaliser (was watching on TV, not at the game) because I just assumed that VAR would find some reason to rule it out. The fact that there was no issue and not even a check is irrelevant - the way the game is officiated has conditioned me now not to really celebrate a lot of goals.

[Follyfoot]

23 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

I agree regarding Botman, but the Dubravka one is about as textbook as it gets. Awoniyi does everything right. Tries to stay up, tries to avoid the keeper by hurdling him, and Dubravka lifts his arm and trips him. I'd be really interested to hear the VAR recording on this one as I'm not actually sure how they've reached their conclusion.

Shady Arab in the corner of Stockley Park, handing out large bundles of £50 notes dictating the conversation

[The_Steve]

No pen for this 

 

 

[VillaChris]

15 hours ago, villa4europe said:

That's a decision that isn't talked about much on here, can anyone remember the 2-2 draw we had vs them about 10 years ago, young scored a penalty and jumped in the crowd, of course he got booked, why wouldn't he get booked everyone knows you get booked for that... Vidic scores an equaliser while already on a yellow card and jumps in the crowd... Of course he wasn't sent off 

The cup final one is obvious but that one also boils my piss still 

Blatant inconsistency in that as Sarr for Spurs was booked on Saturday when he jumped into the crowd so no difference whatsoever to McTominay. 

I assume it will just be dismissed as ref will judge it on the day and decide if celebration is worthy of a booking or not.

[VillaChris]

15 hours ago, Mantis said:

Feel like the officiating has been particularly bad recently - coincidentally around the time we've played Chelsea, Newcastle and Man United. Wonder if we'll get better, or at least more balanced, officiating when we play the "lesser" teams in the coming weeks?

We got a decent run v Arsenal so feels like that was the one key game where we got a run of key decisions.

Ultimately though yesterday we still got it back to 1-1 and had the game in the palm of our hands and still found a way to lose so the dodgy first goal dosen't sting as much to me as some of the ridiculous calls we've had against them in the past.

[Stevo985]

On 11/02/2024 at 09:51, kurtsimonw said:

We live in a world where a referee, assistant referee and a team of referees in the VAR room can look at the Forest penalty incident and all of them think "no penalty". The state of refereeing is ruining the sport to a point of unwatchability. There are s few goals in a game of football, that big incidents often decide the outcomes, and it's unacceptable for them to so routinely get them all wrong.

I'll caveat this by saying I haven't seen the incident in question.

 

But I think the problem is you could have several of the people you mention in your post think it IS a penalty, and it still wouldn't be given.

The high bar / clear and obvious nonsense means that even if some of those people think it is a penalty, if it's not deemed obvious enough then a mistake won't be corrected.

It's nonsense

[bobzy]

17 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

I am well and truly a broken record at this point. Another game where the referee has played a massive part in the outcome. Not a foul. Not a corner (offside). Goal as a result.

VAR is deflecting the issue from the actual problem in football right now. Ange is right in that blue cards will kill the game.

 

15 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

What, like 

dissent isn’t dissent when you’re Bruno F

or pulling someone back isn’t a yellow when you’re harry Maguire

or even jumping into the crowd when you score isn’t a yellow when you’re Scott McTominay

 

I know it's peoples favourite bug bear and I'm aware that I go the other way and defend referees where possible.  I think yesterdays game highlighted the main issue that VAR has brought into the game - the over-refereeing of incidents or (rather) the "high bar" that is set. 

Looking at all the examples above:
- Not a foul.  It wasn't a foul, but I can see why it was given.  It's the sort of non-incident that no-one would care about had nothing come about following the free kick.  Do we want VAR to intervene everywhere or not?
- Not a corner (offside).  Again, I think Casemiro is offside - he doesn't make any contact with the cross, but he attempts to and is therefore interfering (I'm genuinely not sure if this is part of the law anymore - but it should be).  It's a tight decision, though, and I can see why offside wasn't given.  It's a tough call to make.  [Going further on the offside rule, I think our free kicks where we put 1 or 2 players (as was the case yesterday) around the goalkeeper before a free kick is taken should also be given offside.  They never are.]  Do we want VAR to intervene?
- Dissent isn't dissent when you're Bruno F - Easy one to argue because he's an obnoxious little rat on the pitch, but it surely depends on what's being said as to what classifies as dissent?  If Bruno queries a decision with the ref, it's fine.  He's the captain and (again, unless rules have changed which they may have) the captain can have discussions with a referee.  It may be that he's said "why isn't that a foul whereas this other one is?".  Not really dissent.  Lenglet could have said "**** off that's a shit decision" which is clearly dissent.  Without knowing what's been said, it's impossible to judge.
- Harry Maguire yellow - genuinely can't remember the incident, but I'd have any shirt pull as a yellow.
- Jumping into the crowd (McTominay) - grey area; I don't think he does jump into the crowd.  He runs towards them, all the fans flock forward but I'm not sure he actually goes into the crowd.  Similar to Guimaraes who scored the winner for Forest and then stood on the advertising board.  Not in the crowd, not booked.  It was a while ago - but the memory came up on a social media feed - Adomah scored for us against Blues and did the same thing (advertising board).  He wasn't booked.  I imagine it's a technicality as to whether a player actually goes over the advertising boards or not.

But actually, all these smaller things weren't the ones that were "bad" yesterday, for me.  There were two incidents which I thought were so clear and yet not given:
- Varane just barging Watkins in the back as we're about to break.  There's no attempt to play the ball, it's a booking clear as day.  And...
- ...worse, the Lindelof incident with Carlos.  He's pulling Carlos' shirt off his back and then pushes him out of play afterwards.  It's a penalty!  I think it's not given because no Villa player appeals.  Even Carlos just falls to the ground then gets up and jogs back.  I can only assume his particular mindset is that "I'd do this as a defender, it's fair enough" but if that happens against a player in any other position, they're going down, appealing and a penalty is being given.  I don't understand why the incident isn't reviewed (though I assume everything is?) and why there isn't at least a recommendation for the referee to view the footage.

Linked with the latter point here is the absolutely ridiculousness by every single team at corners.  There are so many fouls happening in the box but rarely is anything given.  It's like football becomes a completely different sport for a minute or so.

 

The introduction of VAR has basically lead to over analysis of absolutely everything.  I'm not convinced referees are getting worse (though I think there's some sort of mental thing about VAR picking up bits so they don't need to make a decision OR they can make a decision and if it's wrong, it gets overturned.  They go hand-in-hand), but I think all incidents now go under a spotlight which they didn't pre-VAR.  Penalty claim aside yesterday, I think we basically got incredibly unlucky on a couple of tight calls for Man Utd's first goal - and, for me at least, I can accept this.  It goes the other way over the course of the season too.

Edited February 12 by bobzy

[Davkaus]

18 minutes ago, bobzy said:

 

- Harry Maguire yellow - genuinely can't remember the incident, but I'd have any shirt pull as a yellow.

It's the worst of the lot for me, Maguire is properly wrestling with McGinn, it's not a 50/50 where they're both at it, he's pulling him back with both arms, then McGinn breaks free, and then the ref blows the whistle. Doesn't book him, and makes the decision too late when we should have had advantage. 

Quote

Linked with the latter point here is the absolutely ridiculousness by every single team at corners.  There are so many fouls happening in the box but rarely is anything given.  It's like football becomes a completely different sport for a minute or so.

Couldn't agree more with this, the absurdity is really drilled home where sometimes they'll spend minutes looking for any slight trace of contact to justify a penalty, but you can basically rip the shirt off someone's back from a corner. See also the ability of keepers to just absolutely clatter people in the box without getting the ball.

Edited February 12 by Davkaus

[KentVillan]

I think the problem with the officiating currently is they’re trying to get the game to flow a bit more and for the referee’s decision to be upheld as often as possible by VAR if it’s a “grey area”.

Subconsciously (or maybe consciously, who knows) this gives refs and VAR too much licence to favour one team, by erring slightly on the side of leniency for one side, and / or the side of enforcement for the other side.

My sense is the refs and VAR officials aren’t corrupt, they’re just cowards.

For example, if the same standards of dissent were applied to Bruno Fernandes as your average PL squad player, he’d be sent off in every match.

You similar double standards with cynical fouls, tussling on FKs / corners, and even offsides where I swear they regularly pick the wrong frame for when the ball was played.

It feels like Premier League refs are actually quite thick a lot of the time. Always apparent when you hear them being interviewed after they retire. And the way they boast about how they handle the big characters on the pitch is completely delusional … they’re starstruck and get worked by the big name pros into constantly making little mistakes that add up.

Edited February 13 by KentVillan

[Villaphan04]

Mainoo not getting a second yellow for trying to pull a Rodri tactical foul, and Douglas doesn't go down. Varane stopping a counter and no yellow (or that the ball gets booted away and nothing). Even the commentators over here were saying how is that not a yellow and others are

Edited February 13 by Villaphan04

[Genie]

On 09/02/2024 at 09:55, Stevo985 said:

I'm not in favour of the idea, but I'd say the answers to these questions are fairly obvious.

If it happens in the 44th minute then it lasts for 10 minutes of game time, including the second half.
No you can't be substituted
If you get it in the 90th minute then you sit out the rest of the game (assuming it doesn't go beyond the 100th minute)

There are sin-bins in junior football and they work quite well (I certainly don’t think it’ll go well in the professional game though).

If a player gets a sin-bin towards the end of the game in junior football the ref will say that he’s now done for this game. 

[Genie]

7 hours ago, KentVillan said:

I think the problem with the officiating currently is they’re trying to get the game to flow a bit more and for the referee’s decision to be upheld as often as possible by VAR if it’s a “grey area”.

Personally I think the major issue is the inconsistency. If the refs were consistently strict, or consistently lenient and it was an even playing field it would be absolutely fine. But game-to-game and week-to-week it’s just so random what gets given and what does not. That’s the infuriating part.

VAR are included in that. 1 week something is not looked at as it’s not considered clear and obvious. Then the next week the microscopes are out trawling over 10 minutes of play to find a reason not to award a goal against one of the “bigger” clubs.

Edited February 13 by Genie

[S-Platt]

9 minutes ago, Genie said:

Personally I think the major issue is the inconsistency. If the refs were consistently strict, or consistently lenient and it was an even playing field it would be absolutely fine.

They are consistently shit that's the issue you would think they had learnt their lesson by now.  Stockley Park should judge everything the same but it does not depends on the shirt and that is the issue.

[OutByEaster?]

I don't think that the rules are helping them - the offside rule is a mess - active/inactive/attempting/blocking/letting play go on first/blah blah blah - the rule works best when a player is either offside or not, regardless of what they're doing there - Casemiro is interfering with play for the free kick that leads to their corner because we have eight defenders in a line and the position of that line is dictated by its efforts to put him in an offside position - he is directly affecting the positioning of those eight players - he's offside, I don't care if he's planting a daisy or picking up litter - we really need to get back to the idea of offside simply being about being offside or not.

VAR doesn't help referees - it's a failure -there's maybe a case for keeping it for offside decisions, but for the rest, let the ref make a mistake if he does - don't make it an opportunity for every dickhead who ever earned a refs badge to pile on and make extra mistakes.

We don't need to add blue cards, we don't need to add anything, we need to move the other way, to simplifying things, to removing dumb rules and then once we've done that, we need to absolutely drive to making sure refs actually implement the current laws, change player behaviours and give them the space to get on with it.

 

[sharkyvilla]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

I don't think that the rules are helping them - the offside rule is a mess - active/inactive/attempting/blocking/letting play go on first/blah blah blah - the rule works best when a player is either offside or not, regardless of what they're doing there - Casemiro is interfering with play for the free kick that leads to their corner because we have eight defenders in a line and the position of that line is dictated by its efforts to put him in an offside position - he is directly affecting the positioning of those eight players - he's offside, I don't care if he's planting a daisy or picking up litter - we really need to get back to the idea of offside simply being about being offside or not.

VAR doesn't help referees - it's a failure -there's maybe a case for keeping it for offside decisions, but for the rest, let the ref make a mistake if he does - don't make it an opportunity for every dickhead who ever earned a refs badge to pile on and make extra mistakes.

We don't need to add blue cards, we don't need to add anything, we need to move the other way, to simplifying things, to removing dumb rules and then once we've done that, we need to absolutely drive to making sure refs actually implement the current laws, change player behaviours and give them the space to get on with it.

 

They aren't ever going to change player behaviours.  Sin bins is the last thing available to them that they can try and I think it's ridiculous they've abandoned trialing it.  That's the whole **** point of a trial, if it doesn't work then you scrap it and haven't lost anything.  I find it funny that the likes of Ange and Klopp say 'all it will mean is that teams time-waste for 10 minutes'.  Only football will come up with an argument in that trying to combat cheating like deliberate fouling to stop attacks, teams will just cheat more.  It's the only sport where cheating is such a big part of the game.

[OutByEaster?]

9 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

They aren't ever going to change player behaviours.  Sin bins is the last thing available to them that they can try and I think it's ridiculous they've abandoned trialing it.  That's the whole **** point of a trial, if it doesn't work then you scrap it and haven't lost anything.  I find it funny that the likes of Ange and Klopp say 'all it will mean is that teams time-waste for 10 minutes'.  Only football will come up with an argument in that trying to combat cheating like deliberate fouling to stop attacks, teams will just cheat more.  It's the only sport where cheating is such a big part of the game.

They have a tool to do it - yellow cards - they just don't have the will - giving them additional tools isn't helping.

[KentVillan]

3 hours ago, Genie said:

Personally I think the major issue is the inconsistency. If the refs were consistently strict, or consistently lenient and it was an even playing field it would be absolutely fine. But game-to-game and week-to-week it’s just so random what gets given and what does not. That’s the infuriating part.

VAR are included in that. 1 week something is not looked at as it’s not considered clear and obvious. Then the next week the microscopes are out trawling over 10 minutes of play to find a reason not to award a goal against one of the “bigger” clubs.

That was my point. The big grey areas give refs and VAR too much scope to be inconsistent, whether deliberate or not.