S-Platt Posted August 25, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted August 25, 2021 10 minutes ago, CVByrne said: I was wondering how Dortmund get all these players highly competitive so young there so I decided to look how they brought through Jadon Sancho. He was signed from City youth team when he was 17, he then played some youth games for Dortmund in earlier part of the 17/18 season. He made a few benches and a couple of late sub appearances getting 6 and 10 mins. Then from early 2018 a couple of months before his 18th birthday he got his first start and started 3 in a row, before being back on the bench and getting 18 mins. He then missed 5 games with injury and was back in with 2 sub appearances and playing the 90 in next game and got goal and 2 assists and started the final 3 games. He had taken his chance was a regular starter in the following season. So with JPB and Carney Chukwuemeka they will have seasons like Ramsey did where they will start out getting more and more familiar with being a part of the first team squad in the earlier part of the season. Get preseason games and EFL cup games and some off the bench mins. They like JJ at Wolves one will get a start. Like Archer yesterday you have to take these chances and if JPB put in a brilliant performance he'd have to start the next game and like Sancho did in the matter of a few games in a few months you're a star and the following season a regular starter. Ramsey got his game time last season and did ok, but he never had that stand out performance where you couldn't drop him for the next game. This season he's had his 45 mins against Watford that he was excellent and then Newcastle he was again excellent. He has to start against Brentford now. These young players will get their chances, if they impress they get more, if they're ok they wait for the next chance and the next chance like JJ has done. Thanks for looking into this and before anyone mentions the shirt retiree he is an acception to the rule. When a team is so bad and has no options but to thrust kids into the first 11 then you get the Bellingham situation. Luckily for the the unwashed he held his own and proved he was an undoubted talent then jumped ship to Dortmund to give them a stay of execution! I would think he was introduced slowly to Dortmunds first team but I do not have the facts JPB Carney and Archer are all around the first team learning and getting minutes here and there is the way forward at that age for career longevity just look at how Rooney burnt out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Yeah didn't mention Bellingham as he had a full season of Championship before he signed with Dortmund. I looked up Phil Foden too. He had 10 sub appearances in prem and then started 3 games in the final weeks of the season. He also started 8 cup games and had plenty of England youth games too. The following season he 12 prem sub appearances mostly in first half of season and started 9 mostly towards end of season. 6 starts in the cup, 3 sub. Trent Alexander Arnold is a bit different as I feel defenders are better getting experience in general on Loan. But he had 6 sub appearances and 1 start in Prem and 5 starts in the Cups, earlier part of that season he was playing in u23s. Then the following season he was a regular starter, starting lots of games. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 36 minutes ago, CVByrne said: Yeah didn't mention Bellingham as he had a full season of Championship before he signed with Dortmund. I looked up Phil Foden too. He had 10 sub appearances in prem and then started 3 games in the final weeks of the season. He also started 8 cup games and had plenty of England youth games too. The following season he 12 prem sub appearances mostly in first half of season and started 9 mostly towards end of season. 6 starts in the cup, 3 sub. Trent Alexander Arnold is a bit different as I feel defenders are better getting experience in general on Loan. But he had 6 sub appearances and 1 start in Prem and 5 starts in the Cups, earlier part of that season he was playing in u23s. Then the following season he was a regular starter, starting lots of games. Alexander Arnold I think was also fast tracked because of injuries to the full backs. He went right and Milner went left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's Your Round Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Just watched the highlights back. That no-look pass from Jaden for Archer’s third was perfect. I could watch that goal again and again, so good to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Would have loved him to score that great opportunity he fluffed before Gilbert's goal - should have taken it first time and in a Prem game those mistakes get punished. He'll learn from it. Other than that one mistake, he was absolutely fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 That assist was beautiful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post useless Posted August 25, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 25, 2021 (edited) Before the assist he read the situation very well, saw that Archer was going to lose the ball so raced to help him out, a lot of players wouldn't have thought to do that or even bothered with it being right at the end of game and the scoreline already being 5-0. Good play from him to win the penalty as well, not many players can run that fast with the ball at their feet, especially in such a congested area of the pitch as the opposition's penalty box. Edited August 25, 2021 by useless 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villa87 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 What I like about him is his energy. The 6th goal saw him win it in the middle of the park and run forward with the ball. To then sprint on the overlap to get the ball and then slip in that beautiful pass is just class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichiBoi11 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 You can see why the likes of Dortmund were circling before he signed his new deal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 3 hours ago, CVByrne said: I was wondering how Dortmund get all these players highly competitive so young there so I decided to look how they brought through Jadon Sancho. He was signed from City youth team when he was 17, he then played some youth games for Dortmund in earlier part of the 17/18 season. He made a few benches and a couple of late sub appearances getting 6 and 10 mins. Then from early 2018 a couple of months before his 18th birthday he got his first start and started 3 in a row, before being back on the bench and getting 18 mins. He then missed 5 games with injury and was back in with 2 sub appearances and playing the 90 in next game and got goal and 2 assists and started the final 3 games. He had taken his chance was a regular starter in the following season. So with JPB and Carney Chukwuemeka they will have seasons like Ramsey did where they will start out getting more and more familiar with being a part of the first team squad in the earlier part of the season. Get preseason games and EFL cup games and some off the bench mins. They like JJ at Wolves one will get a start. Like Archer yesterday you have to take these chances and if JPB put in a brilliant performance he'd have to start the next game and like Sancho did in the matter of a few games in a few months you're a star and the following season a regular starter. Ramsey got his game time last season and did ok, but he never had that stand out performance where you couldn't drop him for the next game. This season he's had his 45 mins against Watford that he was excellent and then Newcastle he was again excellent. He has to start against Brentford now. These young players will get their chances, if they impress they get more, if they're ok they wait for the next chance and the next chance like JJ has done. Didn't they put Bellingham straight in at 17? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 11 hours ago, TrentVilla said: Yes, if JPB had started v Newcastle given his career to date I'd call that throwing him in. It is the sort of thing someone like Bruce would do, it isn't in my opinion how you should bring through a talented young player. I hear you. How about now? As in vs Brentford? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Didn't they put Bellingham straight in at 17? Much easier when he's played almost every game in the previous season in Championship for Small Heath. You gain a large amount of experience playing that many games in Championship 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Just now, CVByrne said: Much easier when he's played almost every game in the previous season in Championship for Small Heath. You gain a large amount of experience playing that many games in Championship Still takes some brass to put a 17 year old straight in a high pressure environment when you are expected to challenge for titles Say if Barry does really well and plays 30-40 games this season would we put him straight in the first eleven? Not too sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 9 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Still takes some brass to put a 17 year old straight in a high pressure environment when you are expected to challenge for titles Say if Barry does really well and plays 30-40 games this season would we put him straight in the first eleven? Not too sure. Different level of football, Barry playing 2 Leagues below. Also some players like Bellingham and Chukwuemeka are physically ready at a younger age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Bellingham isn't just any young player, he's a generational talent, when Dortmund paid £20m plus for him he'd only just turned seventeen, he'd been b'ham's best player at the age of sixteen and not just best player in terms of being technically the best but also in his leadership skills and the way he read games, showed the rest of their team up. We shouldn't really compare our players to him, not saying they can't become as good because players develop at different rates, but him being as good as he was at such a young age is super rare and nowhere being close to the norm for how young players develop into first team players. If we'd have signed him instead of Dortmund last season he would have come straight into our team, same for most clubs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 6 minutes ago, CVByrne said: Different level of football, Barry playing 2 Leagues below. Also some players like Bellingham and Chukwuemeka are physically ready at a younger age But physicality is apparently an outdated concept according to some in here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indigo Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Yeah, not sure Bellingham is the best example given the number of games he'd already played but Dortmund certainly have no fear in giving particularly young players a go. Gio Reyna is only 18 and has already played over 50 senior games for them I think, and more recently Youssoufa Moukoko is now firmly a first-team player at just 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinRichardsonsMoustache Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 Unlike previous coaching regimes, DS and co seem to have a very clear pathway for players like JPB. Going out on loan is sometimes a part of that pathway, but giving them chance to train around the first team, to travel with the first team, to come in during cup matches is essential to gently expose to them to the change in level. At each milestone, the player can show he belongs there and perhaps exceed expectations (I think this is where we are with JPB, tbh). I can't help but marvel at how we've developed in nurturing these players. In the past, I think we may have ruined players by either expecting too much or not developing them sufficiently. I looked at the trajectories of the XI when we won the youth cup in the early 2000s: the way we blooded Davis, Whitts and the Moores into the first team seems prehistoric with the more reasonable way we're developing players right now. JPB looks v special but I think the coaching team will know the right pathway for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubliner Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 1 hour ago, villalad21 said: Didn't they put Bellingham straight in at 17? Yes but he's a club legend with a retired number. There's levels to this game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 dortmund have another english winger that they bought from man city called jamie bynoe gittens, turned 17 last week, yet to kick a ball for them i also think that dortmund progressing players in to their first team is hard to judge because under favre almost detrimental to them they didn't half rotate the squad, changed formation most weeks too, probably part of their inconsistency and from what i saw of them at the weekend bellingham was probably their best player, he is a special talent, he'll be a £100m PL player before he's 25 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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