Generic Virus Thread

[LondonLax]

46 minutes ago, blandy said:

Definitely. I can remember close to the start of this pandemic, thinking and saying that I thought Sweden's approach might be the best way (for Sweden) and might work well given the demographics and so on, and then a bit later thinking "actually, no, they've probably messed up there" when the rates were so much higher than other Scandi nations (at the time).

And now, again, as you say the kind of impact of the Swedish approach is looking to be (currently) beneficial.

From the outside it seems like there's adherence pretty much universally to the advice around behaviour and distancing and so on and acceptance of the scientific advice, much more so than seems to be the case in some other places (including the UK), where there have been all these nobbers raising conspiracy theories and protesting outside hospitals and schools and so on. Is that fair, and do you think (if it's true) that the population's widespread acceptance of advice and measures might be a part of the story?

There are definitely Swedes who think the whole coronavirus thing is a hoax but there are probably less people protesting stuff simply because there is a lot less to protest here?

For example if the government here ever brought in a mask mandate I think a load of people would kick off. I have even heard anecdotally of people copping abuse in public if they do chose to wear a mask.

On the other hand I went down to Copenhagen in the summer and one thing I noticed walking around town was the stickers and graffiti people had scrawled over the governments covid safe advertising notices and I found it striking because I realised I hadn’t seen that in Stockholm.

Whether you think government mandated measures are necessary or not it definitely seems to have an impact on social cohesion if they are brought in.

Some of this talk in Germany and Austria of government mandated vaccines is going to be interesting to watch play out  

[bickster]

1 hour ago, AVFCDAN said:

Taking that in face value it’s absolutely mad, people here lost their minds about not being able to get a pint or the size of their Christmas bubble, never mind being taken off to a camp for 2 weeks without consent.

She was taken there from what I can work out because she lied to the contact tracers and said she'd taken a test as a result of close contact, when she hadn't. She also appeared to be outside when the tracers got in touch with her They kind of skirted around that. I think she was put there because she was deemed untrustworthy.

It's draconian for sure and not something that I'd want to see replicated here but she was put there as a result of her own foolish actions.

She also got threatened with a 5K fine in the camp because she went to put stuff in the bin without a mask on and their rules were that a mask should be worn.

Like I said, it sounds horrible but she's her own worst enemy too

[MakemineVanilla]

41 minutes ago, AVFCDAN said:

Taking that in face value it’s absolutely mad, people here lost their minds about not being able to get a pint or the size of their Christmas bubble, never mind being taken off to a camp for 2 weeks without consent.

I think the interesting thing about the draconian measures taken by New Zealand, Australia and Canada, whose political systems are based on Westminster, is that they seem to suggest that British freedoms are largely illusory.

As Anthony Aloysius St John Hancock once said: "Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?"

 

[AVFCDAN]

11 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

I think the interesting thing about the draconian measures taken by New Zealand, Australia and Canada, whose political systems are based on Westminster, is that they seem to suggest that British freedoms are largely illusory.

As Anthony Aloysius St John Hancock once said: "Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?"

 

The one thing that stood out from the video for me was the footage she recorded of the police officer speaking to her (South African i think) in the camp. The gist of what he was saying was essentially i don't fully understand the rules, I'm not going to debate them with you, I'm just here to enforce them... very dangerous thinking and reminds me of other unsavoury things in recent history. She was there as a negative testing person (3 times in total) with threats of being kept longer.. what exactly were the grounds for keeping a negative testing person, never mind extending it as they see fit for non compliance. I actually found it quite shocking in all honesty.

Edited December 3, 2021 by AVFCDAN

[MakemineVanilla]

15 minutes ago, AVFCDAN said:

The one thing that stood out from the video for me was the footage she recorded of the police officer speaking to her (South African i think) in the camp. The gist of what he was saying was essentially i don't fully understand the rules, I'm not going to debate them with you, I'm just here to enforce them... very dangerous thinking and reminds me of other unsavoury things in recent history. She was there as a negative testing person (3 times in total) with threats of being kept longer.. what exactly were the grounds for keeping a negative testing person, never mind extending it as they see fit for non compliance. I actually found it quite shocking in all honesty.

It just struck me that possibly the reason they have taken such strict measures in the Northern Territory, is that it has the highest proportion of aboriginal peoples (30%), who might be particularly vulnerable to diseases of the pulmonary system (COPD etc).

That would explain a lot.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

4 hours ago, blandy said:

Hmmm.  There’s only been 17,000 deaths from Covid since the June opening up. Triffic!

The numbers are difficult as the vaccinated and non vaccinated are grouped.  For the headline statistics it is important to compare like for like,  1 set has a much better chance too get on the graph than the other set.  

Any success or failure of the UK's approach can be seen if the non vaccinated are taken out of the graphs.  They skew the results as they represent the majority in all statistics.

The important numbers are non vaccinated in Hospital or ICU,  everything else is just noise and clouds it all IMO.  

 

 

[Davkaus]

Rightly or wrongly, when we were confined to our homes unless we were exercising, shopping for essential supplies, or performing essential work, it should have demonstrated clearly that all freedoms are illusory when the government can unilaterally change those freedoms at a moment's notice with the threat of imprisonment.

As the great philosopher George Carlin put it; rights aren't rights if someone can take them away. What we have are temporary privileges. 

[sidcow]

17 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

The numbers are difficult as the vaccinated and non vaccinated are grouped.  For the headline statistics it is important to compare like for like,  1 set has a much better chance too get on the graph than the other set.  

Any success or failure of the UK's approach can be seen if the non vaccinated are taken out of the graphs.  They skew the results as they represent the majority in all statistics.

The important numbers are non vaccinated in Hospital or ICU,  everything else is just noise and clouds it all IMO.  

 

 

They keep saying that the vast majority in hospital are non/not fully vaccinated but do seem reluctant to publish the actual statistics. I wonder why because this would surely be a very important metric and certainly help the average man in the street understand the importance. Would he helpful for peer to peer pressure as well to have something concrete to show people. 

Even if you are not concerned about your own personal health, do it to stop clogging up the hospitals. 

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

25 minutes ago, sidcow said:

They keep saying that the vast majority in hospital are non/not fully vaccinated but do seem reluctant to publish the actual statistics.

The Dutch did,  it's approx 80/20 split (I think I posted it somewhere).

[blandy]

3 hours ago, brommy said:

I believe those death figures are with COVID and NOT from COVID. That is, people who have died from any cause who have also tested positive of COVID in the previous 28 days. I suspect dementia, cancer, heart disease, non-COVID respiratory diseases and many other conditions have accounted for many more of those deaths than COVID itself.

Now the vaccinations have reduced the severity of COVID symptoms for most COVID infections, it would be interesting to see the number of deaths where COVID is listed as a contributor.

The data in the graph uses the same criteria all the way back. So while we can't know (and I agree, with Covid and from Covid are not the same thing), how many of those people might have died anyway, from something else, in the not too distant, the point is that the numbers of people dying where covid is a factor has followed the increase, as the number of covid cases has risen. Many of the deaths are of unvaccinated people, where they through choice or other reason have not been vaccinated.

[bannedfromHandV]

If they really wanted to get an accurate picture on the data it could be done surely?

Treat it like election time, set up stations all over the place and make it mandatory for everyone to go get tested for the virus and/or the antibodies showing someone’s had it at some point.

I’m not saying it would be easy but at least then there would be accuracy and not just selective data.

[brommy]

2 hours ago, blandy said:

The data in the graph uses the same criteria all the way back. So while we can't know (and I agree, with Covid and from Covid are not the same thing), how many of those people might have died anyway, from something else, in the not too distant, the point is that the numbers of people dying where covid is a factor has followed the increase, as the number of covid cases has risen. Many of the deaths are of unvaccinated people, where they through choice or other reason have not been vaccinated.

I’m wondering if a more reliable figure for the current ‘wave’ of COVID deaths could be gained from the number of additional deaths this autumn when compared to average deaths in the autumns of the years (typically 5) preceding 2020. From the data I’ve seen the vaccinations are doing a good job of reducing deaths (certainly less than the died from any cause within 28 days of a positive test data). Hopefully this will persuade some doubters that vaccination is their safest and wisest course of action. I personally know one woman in her mid-twenties who has refused for the past 6 months (apparently due to her concerns around fertility and safety), who has just changed her mind and been jabbed for the first time. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by brommy

[blandy]

24 minutes ago, brommy said:

a more reliable figure for the current ‘wave’ of COVID deaths

Well, there's also the death certificate giving Covid as the cause of death (i.e. not like crashed their car, but also had Covid, or whatever)

 

[sidcow]

Surely the vaccines have been around long enough now to have spotted any fertility issues.  There must be a large enough sample of women who have fallen pregnant now after being jabbed? 

That said the whole issue is just a other internet manufactured thing.  I've not seen any credible source anywhere raising it as a potential issue. 

[MakemineVanilla]

The average number of deaths from all causes in 2018, which was the highest since 1999, was 1,483.8.

If we take the average of the graph as 100 extra deaths per day, is that statistically significant?

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, sidcow said:

Surely the vaccines have been around long enough now to have spotted any fertility issues.  There must be a large enough sample of women who have fallen pregnant now after being jabbed? 

That said the whole issue is just a other internet manufactured thing.  I've not seen any credible source anywhere raising it as a potential issue. 

Had my booster today.

Will report back in the morning.

[Wainy316]

1 hour ago, sidcow said:

Surely the vaccines have been around long enough now to have spotted any fertility issues.  There must be a large enough sample of women who have fallen pregnant now after being jabbed? 

Yeah, I mentioned before, but within a few days of the second jab 

[chrisp65]

[Wainy316]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Cheers, stealing that :)

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

The case rises in SA are fairly astonishing and scary at the moment.