Popular Post Rolta Posted June 8, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 8, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Follyfoot said: I would say defeating the Nazis is probably the most important part of modern British and world history. Your comments show great Disrespect to those who laid down their lives so you could live in freedom. Why would you say that? And which exact comment was disrespectful? Bear in mind my point was that it is good for people to know the wider span of British history. The other point was that it seems as if some people feel WW2 was the only event in history. I didn't say it wasn't important, and I didn't say anything disrespectful to those who fought in it. But it's also impossible to divorce WW2 from the wider context of the Empire, literally impossible. You can't draw a line in 1939 and say 'Let's only talk about our past from this point.' Do you disagree that it would be good for people to know our history more broadly? You can't move forwards as a country if the country, generally speaking, is selective of its past to such a degree that it doesn't even know what it is—and part of that is knowing that our wealth was built on the exploitation of other races, and that we did it because we thought we were superior. The truth sets us free and all that. It's nothing to be afraid of. But we shouldn't ignore it. Which brings us back to your comment 'Your comments show great Disrespect to those who laid down their lives so you could live in freedom'—I respect those who fought in the war, terrible though it was. But do you respect all those exploited by the likes of Churchill, who were forcibly exploited and murdered in order for you to live in a prosperous country? Edited June 8, 2020 by Rolta 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 8, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 8, 2020 There's nothing disrespectful in those comments at all. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 If literally anything other than 'we are the best because we won World War 2 and that's all there is to it' is going to be considered 'disrespectful', then there isn't going to be much of a discussion about anything is there. Which is obviously the point. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 25 minutes ago, Follyfoot said: I would say defeating the Nazis is probably the most important part of modern British and world history. Given that you haven't mentioned any of the other allies, you're sounding like you think that Britain did this all on her own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 22 minutes ago, Follyfoot said: I would say defeating the Nazis is probably the most important part of modern British and world history. Your comments show great Disrespect to those who laid down their lives so you could live in freedom. I wonder how Sir captain Tom Moore would feel about those remarks. What a legend, a great example of a person who fought for this country and cared about the NHS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 I think people are giving far to much credit to the mindless vandals if they think their actions were because he was a racist. The were vandalising everything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: I think people are giving far to much credit to the mindless vandals if they think their actions were because he was a racist. The were vandalising everything! Were they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 12 minutes ago, PaulC said: I wonder how Sir captain Tom Moore would feel about those remarks. What a legend, a great example of a person who fought for this country and cared about the NHS. Who knows? maybe he thinks the bombing of Dresden was a war crime and the nhs is broken and therefore leaks funds like a sieve hence why they needed the money? but because he’s full of traditional British stoicism he never actually says it 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 16 minutes ago, PaulC said: I wonder how Sir captain Tom Moore would feel about those remarks. What a legend, a great example of a person who fought for this country and cared about the NHS. I wouldn't want to put words in his mouth tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tonyh29 Posted June 8, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 8, 2020 (edited) I can't help feel that people are getting bogged down over the whole Churchill thing and getting away from the topic in hand There is a lot of selective quoting going on where people are taking something he said or did without any context to suit an agenda he was a racist .. (I saw a link that was obviously designed to paint him in a light with Hitler and Stalin , or worse) , with respect to that poster whose views I thoroughly respect , that link is bollocks ... I've read a lot of books about him , i could give a counter to just about everything aimed at him in the past few days , but I still don't think he'd come out of it as anything over than a bloke who had some racist tendencies ... it's quite clear Churchill was a complex character with views that we do find abhorrent today , paired with some views that made people of the time accuse him of being a radical . His family wrote to him as they were concerned he was going to convert to Islam , he criticised the Aliens bill as he believed it was anti-Semitic and spoke in favour of a Jewish land and was even accused of being too found of Jews ... That someone vandalized his statue makes me angry , but even taking that aside as "justified" the protestors to my mind should have looked around the Square to the statue of Millicent Fawcett and taken her advice "to keep strictly to our principle of supporting our movement only by argument, based on common sense and experience and not by personal violence or lawbreaking of any kind" Edited June 8, 2020 by tonyh29 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 8, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 8, 2020 18 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: I think people are giving far to much credit to the mindless vandals if they think their actions were because he was a racist. The were vandalising everything! From FB Quote On Wednesday I had the pleasure and privilege to volunteer as a medic for the London Black Lives Matter protest. I wasn’t going to say anything but seeing what’s on the news I thought I’d give my input. There were over 20,000 people present, and it was mostly incredibly peaceful. I’m talking less antagonism than an A&E waiting room. Definitely less than post a football match. I wasn’t needed to do ANY first aid for the whole protest and I stayed from 12pm-7pm when the protest was dispersing. I’ve heard there were some clashes after. Also Hyde Park was left so spotless by the protestors& volunteers the park police complimented us! It took me a long time to decide I was going to volunteer. On one hand, a deadly viral pandemic. On the other, deadly systemic racism. A few things helped me decide, including the recent government relaxation of lockdown, the VE street parties, the crowded beaches. But what finally made my mind up was looking at the footage from America and the police brutality to everyone. The right to protest peacefully is a cornerstone of democracy and if violence breaks out protesters need on-scene attention. As healthcare staff I feel like it’s our responsibility to protect people from infectious disease, but the government has been hugely irresponsible on that front. I also feel that we have a responsibility to speak out& act against systemic healthcare inequalities. I spent my time at the protest encouraging mask use and hand-washing, as well as encouraging health promotion like smoking cessation. Around 95% of the protestors were in masks (we gave out over 500), 0 members of police were. The protest was intended to be well-distanced. The organisers spent a long time planning it and we set up everyone 2 metres apart. However, a huge number of people turned up and the social distancing kind of collapsed. We also told everyone if they were sick or vulnerable (or lived with vulnerable people) they shouldn’t participate. And we advised social isolation and caution afterwards. I made a personal choice that I don’t expect anyone else to, and I don’t judge people for their choices. I just wanted people to know before they see media portrayals of today’s protests, and to think about how they are going to respond #BLM #BLMLDN #BLMLDNmovement 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 1 hour ago, villa4europe said: Yeah thats my problem with it All the valid points and good work and the original message are now going to be washed over with the story that they spray painted Churchill and war memorial statues and they were already swimming against the tide anyway Just don't do it, it side swipes the whole thing in to something different 1 hour ago, Rolta said: Or it just gives a convenient excuse for people who don't really have that much sympathy anyway to work a little confirmation bias in their heads and get sanctimonious about it all. Probably no surprise, but I agree with the latter point here. On a protest that thousands or tens of thousands of people attend, obviously some of them will do or say things you disagree with. If you take the first opportunity to therefore denounce the protests, or more-in-sadness-than-in-anger say that regrettably you can no longer fully support them, that is of course your right, but it just really shows you were looking for the first opportunity to get off the wagon. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 13 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Were they? Dunno. I exaggerated for affect. Sorry that was a bit naughty. They did vandalise Abraham Lincolns stature though. Surely he didn’t deserve that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 6 minutes ago, mjmooney said: From FB There’s always a few bad eggs that ruin it for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 8, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Follyfoot said: Bringing the army in to the riots actually helped the situation not hinder Forgive my history ignorance, but didn't the soldiers shoot the strikers/rioters? That's (if correct) an unusual definition of "helping". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GarethRDR Posted June 8, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 8, 2020 6 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: They did vandalise Abraham Lincolns stature though. Surely he didn’t deserve that? Actual footage: 4 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 8, 2020 Author Share Posted June 8, 2020 46 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Were they? Yes they were vansalising alot of things. It wasnt everyone so i dont want to tarnish them all. But there was mindless idiots vandlising shops destroying bins. Just because you didnt see it on tv doesnt mean it didnt happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Yes they were vansalising alot of things. It wasnt everyone so i dont want to tarnish them all. But there was mindless idiots vandlising shops destroying bins. Just because you didnt see it on tv doesnt mean it didnt happen. The reason I'm asking the question is because there is a difference between a 'protest' and a 'riot'. To call something a 'protest' is not to say that nothing got damaged, but that damage was either small-scale and trivial or targeted for political reasons. A 'riot', by contrast, is when violence stops being targeted and becomes indiscriminate. The post I was responding to asserted that 'they were vandalising everything!', ie that it was a riot, which assertion was withdrawn as soon as I asked about it. I know it wasn't a riot, not only from TV but from hearing from people who were there, and from reading accounts such as the one @mjmooney posted above. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Just seen Farage’s tweet of someone setting fire to the Union Jack. People going to these protests really need to stop this kind of behaviour. It’s perfect ammunition for the likes of Farage to incite more hatred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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