Popular Post Demitri_C Posted June 7, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) 39 minutes ago, snowychap said: Your opinion is nonsense. You have to stop posting things like this. Just because you dont agree with it doesnt mean its nonsense Edited June 7, 2020 by Demitri_C 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post snowychap Posted June 7, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: You have to stop posting things like this. Just because you dont agree with it doesnt mean its nonsense No, Dem. You have to start trying to understand what people are posting before you reply. I didn't call his opinion nonsense because I disagreed with it. I called it nonsense because it was nonsense and I explained why in the previous post. There are plenty of opinions with which I disagree which are not nonsense. Edit 2: Repetition. Edit: Just because someone declares that what they have said is 'their opinion' does not make it immune to criticism (that includes being called nonsense). That itself is utter nonsense. Edited June 7, 2020 by snowychap 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 7, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 7, 2020 Fun and games in Bristol today, with the Colston statue pulled down and chucked in the harbour. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted June 7, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2020 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 7 hours ago, Xela said: I think some see it as virtue signalling though. If companies really cared they wouldn't treat their staff like shit or have their products made in sweat shops in China or Bangladesh for example. Like you say some companies will be genuine and do things the right way but a lot will just see it as an opportunity to jump on a bandwagon. Here's a thread of all these companies and their profiting off slave labor: Only genuine company I've seen so far is Ben and Jerry's. The rest are just cynically capitalizing off of this (as they're wont to do, given that's literally their whole MO). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only2McInallys Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: I personally think Winston Churchill’s statue was vandalised by mindless thugs but I get how it can be seen a racially motivated. But can anyone explain to me why Abraham Lincoln’s statue was vandalised? The funny thing about Lincoln is he originally didn’t oppose slavery where it already existed in 1850’s ,he was opposed to it expanding. In great debates in 1858-9 he actually said a a lot of racist things which were regarded as accepted for the time. In the civil war he only decided to abolish slavery because he thought it would help the war effort He is one of those people who people might idolise but when you dig a bit deeper you discover things that are unpleasant.I often think it is wrong to judge historical people by standards which are accepted now. For that time he was advanced compared to many others. Edited June 7, 2020 by Only2McInallys 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 1 minute ago, Only2McInallys said: The funny thing about Lincoln is he originally didn’t oppose slavery where it already existed in 1850’s ,he was opposed to it expanding. In great debates in 1858-9 he actually said a a lot of racist things which were regarded as accepted for the time. In the civil war he only decided to abolish slavery because he thought it would help the war effort He is one of those people who people might idolise but when you dig a bit deeper you discover things that are unpleasant.I often think it is wrong to judge historical people by standards which are accepted now. Not sure how I feel about the historical standards argument. In a sense I understand it, but racism and slavery were just as wrong then as they are now, and there were plenty of people who believed this at the time, not least those on the receiving end of them. Like Churchill as an example from this thread. His racism directly led to the death of millions, and I'm not going to ignore that because there was a larger proportion of people who thought like him during his time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, bickster said: Are you aware of the 1943 Bengall Famine in which his policies had the effect of killing 2 to 3 million people? He even refused to send aid, afterhis policies of taking the rice for the "war effort" caused the famine in the first place. It's the only famine in recorded history, not caused by drought and the rice taken was stockpiled, not used to feed the troops. His rationale was that because the Indians "bred like Rabbits", any aid would be pointless. Effectively his policies caused a genocide of millions of people. That's but one of many examples of his racism. I just that one he caused the deaths of millions It really isn't as simple as he won the war but lets not focus on that Churchill was not the direct cause of the famine though possible he did contribute to it by not diverting ships to bring aid . The cause was the Japanese taking control of Burma which cut off India’s rice supply. Churchill however appointed Wavell, who mobilized the military to transport food and aid to the stricken regions . its a long way from saying Indians breed like rabbits to killing 3 million people out of some racist ideology Edited June 7, 2020 by tonyh29 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 24 minutes ago, Keyblade said: Not sure how I feel about the historical standards argument. In a sense I understand it, but racism and slavery were just as wrong then as they are now, and there were plenty of people who believed this at the time, not least those on the receiving end of them. Like Churchill as an example from this thread. His racism directly led to the death of millions, and I'm not going to ignore that because there was a larger proportion of people who thought like him during his time. You cant ignore it no more can you take away his status as a great man in our time of need. My argument is that to label him as a racist is plain wrong because in doing so you'll take away our heritage. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only2McInallys Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 26 minutes ago, Keyblade said: Not sure how I feel about the historical standards argument. In a sense I understand it, but racism and slavery were just as wrong then as they are now, and there were plenty of people who believed this at the time, not least those on the receiving end of them. Like Churchill as an example from this thread. His racism directly led to the death of millions, and I'm not going to ignore that because there was a larger proportion of people who thought like him during his time. I wouldn’t disagree about Churchill but someone mentioned Lincoln’s statue being attacked and if we look at some of Lincoln’s views now we would find them wrong but for his time he was advancing ideas that led to the abolition of slavery.Is he to be judged by the standards now or then? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 7, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 7, 2020 1 minute ago, PaulC said: My argument is that to label him as a racist is plain wrong because in doing so you'll take away our heritage. He was that much of a racist, wikipedia has a page dedicated to his racism. Churchill was a racist, it really shouldn't be up for debate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Only2McInallys said: I wouldn’t disagree about Churchill but someone mentioned Lincoln’s statue being attacked and if we look at some of Lincoln’s views now we would find them wrong but for his time he was advancing ideas that led to the abolition of slavery.Is he to be judged by the standards now or then? I would contend that since there were fully fledged, earnest abolitionists during his time, he was behind the curve even then. As you mentioned, he only eventually opposed it for reasons other than its moral repugnance. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 27 minutes ago, Only2McInallys said: I wouldn’t disagree about Churchill but someone mentioned Lincoln’s statue being attacked and if we look at some of Lincoln’s views now we would find them wrong but for his time he was advancing ideas that led to the abolition of slavery.Is he to be judged by the standards now or then? Seems best to me to judge him both by the standards of the time *and* the standards of today, and surely that's what most of us do anyway? Ditto Churchill and any other historical figure. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 2 hours ago, mjmooney said: Fun and games in Bristol today, with the Colston statue pulled down and chucked in the harbour. He got off easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post maqroll Posted June 7, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2020 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 A really good thread (sorry if it's already been posted) on the context behind that statue: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) I’m posting this as the good people at Aljazeera appear to have gone early with the welsh independence referendum Edited June 7, 2020 by chrisp65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 **** love the tear down of that statue in Brizzle, a city I lived in and loved. The bigger question is why it was up for so long. Statues should not be for those that got rich off suffering - it ain't difficult. Nonetheless Priti Patel and Sajid Javid thinks it is wrong. Literally the most out of touch ruling party there has ever been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only2McInallys Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 25 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Seems best to me to judge him both by the standards of the time *and* the standards of today, and surely that's what most of us do anyway? Ditto Churchill and any other historical figure. So should we be destroying statues of Abraham Lincoln? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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