Gareth Southgate

[El Zen]

7 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Point taken re Denmark, but I would not have said they were underdogs in any of the knock-out games they played until they played England; that's why I chose them. I expected them to beat both Wales and Czech Republic, and I feel that was the consensus at the time.

But if you don't want me to ask this about Denmark, then let me broaden it out to ask any non-English people whether this is a line of criticism that they have experienced.

I think it’s a fair question, don’t get me wrong. I do think, as I said, that the England team is more divisive in England than a lot of teams are among their respective populations. I can only speculate as to why that is, but I think that’s for a broader cultural discussion. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by El Zen

[Genie]

4 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Maybe. But I am genuinely curious whether fans in other countries beat themselves up over this, or whether this is a uniquely or predominantly English thing.

I don’t think people are beating themselves up over it. It’s just tempering the “best manager ever” with the fact that a major part of the good results is down to avoiding the best teams.

Like when Villa were top of the league after 4 games last season. If there was a trophy for that would we be convinced we were the best team in the country? 

Its amazing to be in the final, but we have to be honest about how fortunate we’ve been (again)… and the fact we got into the final by cheating.

[HanoiVillan]

19 minutes ago, Genie said:

I don’t think people are beating themselves up over it. It’s just tempering the “best manager ever” with the fact that a major part of the good results is down to avoiding the best teams.

Like when Villa were top of the league after 4 games last season. If there was a trophy for that would we be convinced we were the best team in the country? 

Its amazing to be in the final, but we have to be honest about how fortunate we’ve been (again)… and the fact we got into the final by cheating.

I mean, I don't think 'we got into the final by cheating', but it's probably best not to reopen that can of worms.

Different circumstances, different teams, different fixtures all mean it's hard to authoritatively compare international managers across years, so claims of 'the best' aren't scientific (and surely nobody is arguing he's better than Ramsey are they?) but equally it seems perverse to talk about fixture difficulty as if it's some kind of asterisk. You win it or you don't, it's as simple as that.

[colhint]

International football is so different to league. You will never win the league playing England, or most other other national teams. They have the players for such a short time. They can't really be coached into a new system. If Pep is playing Burnley in the league and it's 1-1 after 80 mins, he's going to go for it. If it's the same in the cup, not quite so much

[Genie]

I think if Gareth beats an in-form Italy side tomorrow then he will have earned the praise. They look a quality, hard working, well organised team.

If he loses then I think “getting go the final” overstates the achievement imo because he will have lost to the first top tier side he came up against. 

[El Zen]

There is no shame in losing in a close game to a very good Italy side tomorrow. Regardless of tomorrow night, it’s hard to knock England’s results.

Any criticism will have to be against style, entertainment value and performances. I think England have been awfully boring to watch and not come close to realising the full attacking potential of the available players.

I’ll criticise Southgate for that, not for his results. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by El Zen

[Mark Albrighton]

To be fair to Southgate, how often has England faced a “top side” and progressed? 

Italia 90, who was the one of the elite teams Bobby Robson’s side encountered before losing to Germany? A surprise package Cameroon?

I’d be accepting that the Netherlands in 1996 were probably regarded as being one of the teams to watch. And maybe Argentina in 2002. Of course they were both group matches so that might be a slightly different factor.

While I agree that across these two tournaments Southgate hasn’t had to do the equivalent of Italy beating Belgium and Spain one after the other, unless I’m forgetting something, I don’t think historically England have had many tournaments where they’ve had to play back to back elite national sides.

[PieFacE]

Pre-tournament I honestly didn't think we'd get this far at all. In fact, part of me thought we'd struggle with the group stage, and that fear was purely due to the fact that Southgate was our manager. 

But he's proved me and so others to be complete morons. Either he's actually quite an astute manager at International level or he's surrounded himself with brilliant coaches who know exactly what they are doing. 

Either way, kudos to him cos it's getting the job done. It's not perfect or pretty but it's effective for tournament football. Results are all that matter at the end of the day. 

[Zatman]

7 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Genuinely interested to hear from any Danes / people living in Denmark whether all the talk among Danish football fans was over them 'not beating anyone decent' before the England game, or if they were just enjoying their progress for what it was.

Mm im pretty sure Danes were happy  enough to get that far since the inspirational player on the team nearly died in the middle of the pitch and BBC were happy to show it

[HanoiVillan]

5 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Mm im pretty sure Danes were happy  enough to get that far since the inspirational player on the team nearly died in the middle of the pitch and BBC were happy to show it

My question isn't meant to be an insult to Denmark, and I have said since that post that I am happy to hear from fans of other nations too. I only ask about Denmark because they had the 'easiest' run in knock-out games (Wales and Czech Republic were two teams they were rightly favoured against).

People seem to be reading something into that post that isn't there.

[Zatman]

55 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

My question isn't meant to be an insult to Denmark, and I have said since that post that I am happy to hear from fans of other nations too. I only ask about Denmark because they had the 'easiest' run in knock-out games (Wales and Czech Republic were two teams they were rightly favoured against).

People seem to be reading something into that post that isn't there.

i understand your point but Denmark had the worst run ever, the captain/best player/insprirational leader nearly died on the pitch. Its a miracle emotionally  they got so far

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, Zatman said:

i understand your point but Denmark had the worst run ever, the captain/best player/insprirational leader nearly died on the pitch. Its a miracle emotionally  they got so far

Okay, let me ask the same question in a competely different context, so the emotion isn't part of it:

Let's imagine that Ireland get to the next Rugby World Cup final. Somehow - just the way the fixtures shake out - they do this without needing to beat New Zealand, Australia or France, and get there by beating smaller and middle-ranked nations, maybe one bigger team fallen on hard times like England or South Africa. Does the Irish rugby-watching public talk about their run to the final like it somehow counts for less or isn't particularly impressive because they didn't have to beat the biggest teams?

It's not a trick question, I'm genuinely asking whether other countries have the same discourse about this stuff or not, or whether it's to the same extent.

[turnbull]

Reading some of the comments on social media, I'm just glad the internet wasn't around in 66 and 70, cos it would have melted down and been unusable after those two World Cups.

[GarethRDR]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

Let's imagine that Ireland get to the next Rugby World Cup final. Somehow - just the way the fixtures shake out - they do this without needing to beat New Zealand, Australia or France, and get there by beating smaller and middle-ranked nations, maybe one bigger team fallen on hard times like England or South Africa. Does the Irish rugby-watching public talk about their run to the final like it somehow counts for less or isn't particularly impressive because they didn't have to beat the biggest teams?

Sooo.... a bit like Villa's run to the European Cup?

 

[Zatman]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

Okay, let me ask the same question in a competely different context, so the emotion isn't part of it:

Let's imagine that Ireland get to the next Rugby World Cup final. Somehow - just the way the fixtures shake out - they do this without needing to beat New Zealand, Australia or France, and get there by beating smaller and middle-ranked nations, maybe one bigger team fallen on hard times like England or South Africa. Does the Irish rugby-watching public talk about their run to the final like it somehow counts for less or isn't particularly impressive because they didn't have to beat the biggest teams?

It's not a trick question, I'm genuinely asking whether other countries have the same discourse about this stuff or not, or whether it's to the same extent.

Well thats fair enough but i dont care about rugby. Not sure what the point is. Nobody actually cares who England beat to get to the final 

 

[KentVillan]

Starting to rethink my opinion of Southgate tbh.

Not just because he's done a decent job with England, but also because the more I look at his move to Middlesbrough, the more it seems to be a man who desperately wanted Villa to do well and had grown frustrated and bitter. Forget about the fact he went to Boro and said a few silly things in the press, it wasn't much different from Barry, Milner, or Young.

We often praise players who stick around into their 30s, playing a few games off the bench, maybe scoring the odd goal against SHA. But reality is what builds success at a club is the players who want something more than that.

He's been brilliant with Mings, and while I do think he had an issue with Jack, that's a thing of the past now.

Yes I'd like him to play more attacking football, and find a way to involve the creative players more often. But his job is to win a tournament, and he's got very close to achieving that twice now.

I also think the values he wants the team to display off the pitch are things we should all be able to get behind.

So yeah, I suppose I have to take back a few things I said!

 

[HanoiVillan]

3 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Nobody actually cares who England beat to get to the final

au contraire

[MNVillan]

This whole “they haven’t beaten a top side” argument is so dumb. England’s job is to beat the sides on the other side of the pitch from them, and they’ve done everything asked of them. It’s the way the tournament works.

I can’t believe I’m an American on here defending the English national team from a bunch of Englishmen. England has been the best side in each match they’ve played so far, they deserve their place. Bring it home.

But please don’t support the Packers.

[KentVillan]

16 minutes ago, MNVillan said:

This whole “they haven’t beaten a top side” argument is so dumb. England’s job is to beat the sides on the other side of the pitch from them, and they’ve done everything asked of them. It’s the way the tournament works.

I can’t believe I’m an American on here defending the English national team from a bunch of Englishmen. England has been the best side in each match they’ve played so far, they deserve their place. Bring it home.

But please don’t support the Packers.

Agree with you.

I think it was a fair argument in the World Cup in Russia, but this time around we've beaten some decent teams. Croatia, Germany and Denmark are all ranked in the FIFA Top 20, and Czechia are no mugs.

[Withnail]

If England win will it be Sir Gareth Southgate?