England Euro 2016 Chat

[villa4europe]

1 hour ago, useless said:

There's a reason England is so far behind other nations when it comes to football development, and that reason is to do with a style of football ingrained into the 'English way'. If England want to improve the last thing they need is someone who'll reinforce that style.

i disagree

theres no other country in the world that treats and pays their young players in the way that we do, none of them leave, none of them chase football, look at chelsea right now, best yoof set up in the country, win the league win the U19 CL, pay their 18 year olds £20-30k a week, none of them make it, all of them stay until its too late, McEachran, Chalobah, next will be loftus cheek and baker

chalobah is 21 played 5 games for napoli last year...but he earned £1.5m so what does he care?

4 central midfielders are stars at youth level, all on cracking wages, all not playing for chelsea, they've got a combined total of 27 appearances for chelsea

out of the 20 players in our toulon winning U21 squad at the moment there are 9 players who have more U21 caps than appearances for the club that owns them, in spains there are 2, germany have 1

if you count the number of bundesliga games the german U21 squad have between them compared to the number of prem games our U21 squad have between them its embarrassing

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, useless said:

So just because Portugal have won a competition we must copy them. Besides they may have put in some good defensive performances, but they also have some very good technical players, who proved to be match-winners for them, it's not as if they're a blood and thunder team who've just a trophy.

This is the exact opposite of what I'm saying. 

I'm trying to say there's no magic 'formula' or 'way' or whatever. You just have to draw or win six or seven games in a row in June every couple of years. 

I disagree that Portugal had good players. They have basically crap players who played very defensively and got a lucky draw all the way to the final.

I think Allardyce has as much chance of being successful as any other possible England manager, which is to say, not very much chance at all. But I don't think he's obviously worse than any other options. And sorting out the defence would go a long way, let's face it. 

[useless]

I'm saying that Allardyce's way of playing football is exactly the way of how not to win a tournament. England have already been playing that way or a slight variation on it and look where it's got them. Allardyce won't bring anything that hasn't already been done before. There might not be a specific way of winning tournaments but there are ways that have proven to be unsuccesful. Has anyone ever won an international tournament playing Allardyce's style.

[villa4europe]

i got bored...number of first team appearances at the top level for each Under 21 squad

england - 340 (186 of them are at southampton)

germany - 723

spain - 964

portugal - 740

italy - 699

France - 611

you're telling me you cant see the problem...

[useless]

You rather make my point for me, with those numbers.

Edited July 13, 2016 by useless

[kurtsimonw]

Lack of opportunity is definitely the issue and nothing to do with development. Which is what makes the whole Klinsmann thing even more ridiculous. What's he going to do, force Chelsea and City to field young English players?

[mikeyp102]

8 hours ago, useless said:

I'm saying that Allardyce's way of playing football is exactly the way of how not to win a tournament. England have already been playing that way or a slight variation on it and look where it's got them. Allardyce won't bring anything that hasn't already been done before. There might not be a specific way of winning tournaments but there are ways that have proven to be unsuccesful. Has anyone ever won an international tournament playing Allardyce's style.

Maybe not won, but Brazil got to the semi final last time round (yes I know what in the semi) by playing a very regimented style and scoring from set pieces. 

Most tournaments are won in a different style than the previous one 

[villa4europe]

9 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

Lack of opportunity is definitely the issue and nothing to do with development. Which is what makes the whole Klinsmann thing even more ridiculous. What's he going to do, force Chelsea and City to field young English players?

Lack of opportunity is a load of **** bullshit

poor young English players can't get a game because of Johnny Foreigner...don't sign for **** Chelsea then...izzy brown would have played 30+ games for the baggies by now, went to Chelsea for the big bucks and the bright lights, I hope he enjoys vitesse 

none of these kids are banging tables saying get me out of here I want to play football, they're enjoying themselves, football is coming second 

[Zatman]

I have to say parents are probably more at fault than the players at the age of 16-18. make a quick buck and your kids career ruined by 22 instead of let them develop and have a longer career

Izzy Brown wouldnt have been on the breadline playing for West Brom

[bobzy]

1 hour ago, Zatman said:

I have to say parents are probably more at fault than the players at the age of 16-18. make a quick buck and your kids career ruined by 22 instead of let them develop and have a longer career

Izzy Brown wouldnt have been on the breadline playing for West Brom

The Premier League/Premier League clubs are more at fault than anyone else.  There should be a limit to the amount of youth players a club can hold and a salary cap for said youth players until they've played a certain amount of senior games.

The eating up of talent, ludicrously inflated wages, ridiculous "feeder club" systems and (relatively) unlimited wealth of the Premier League is what is **** everything up.

But people love it.  They love the money being thrown around.  Look at the reaction to Xia coming in here and saying we'll be one of the top 3 clubs in the World.  Fans want to see an overhaul of a squad, large transfer fees etc.  It's no longer so much about the development of a team - everyone; fans, players, sponsors and Sky want it all right now.  Good luck, England.

[AvfcTheObsession]

4 hours ago, villa4europe said:

Lack of opportunity is a load of **** bullshit

poor young English players can't get a game because of Johnny Foreigner...don't sign for **** Chelsea then...izzy brown would have played 30+ games for the baggies by now, went to Chelsea for the big bucks and the bright lights, I hope he enjoys vitesse 

none of these kids are banging tables saying get me out of here I want to play football, they're enjoying themselves, football is coming second 

Exactly. They all want to drive the flashiest car, earn the most money and sign for the 'biggest' club, whether that be Chelsea, Man City or whoever else this week. Parents encourage it 'son, you're signing for Man City, Guardiola's the manager!' etc. Ignoring the fact they haven't even made their name at WBA/Villa/whoever else they started at.

[BOF]

5 hours ago, villa4europe said:

Lack of opportunity is a load of **** bullshit

poor young English players can't get a game because of Johnny Foreigner...don't sign for **** Chelsea then...izzy brown would have played 30+ games for the baggies by now, went to Chelsea for the big bucks and the bright lights, I hope he enjoys vitesse 

none of these kids are banging tables saying get me out of here I want to play football, they're enjoying themselves, football is coming second 

[StanBalaban]

16 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

Lack of opportunity is definitely the issue and nothing to do with development. Which is what makes the whole Klinsmann thing even more ridiculous. What's he going to do, force Chelsea and City to field young English players?

There's a whole world of football out there. Literally.

Talented younger players would be welcomed in other leagues - hell they may even learn a different culture and a new language to boot, but the sad fact is that their contracts mean they'll probably earn more staying with Chelsea's squad, been farmed out on loan after loan, than trying to force their way into a decent la Liga or Bundesliga team (for example).  

[Ryan.]

We should start one of them petition things (there's one for everything else at the moment) to only use players from the championship and below in "protest".

The Irony is that they would actually be an upgrade on our current flopstars.

 

[kurtsimonw]

19 hours ago, villa4europe said:

Lack of opportunity is a load of **** bullshit

poor young English players can't get a game because of Johnny Foreigner...don't sign for **** Chelsea then...izzy brown would have played 30+ games for the baggies by now, went to Chelsea for the big bucks and the bright lights, I hope he enjoys vitesse 

none of these kids are banging tables saying get me out of here I want to play football, they're enjoying themselves, football is coming second 

But it's still a lack of opportunity, is it not? Also, I assume footballers think that if X club wants me, then they must think I'm good enough. Regardless, whether they go for money, fame, more twitter followers, because they like the colour of the shirt - it still comes down to a lack of opportunity. Whether it's the fault of the buying club, the selling club the player or the kit man is up for debate. I'm not disagreeing with you.

But it comes down to what I've said in all of the post-England-Euro-exit stuff - the Premier League is the problem. The 5th best club in Italy, Spain, Germany, France is probably no bigger in terms of pulling power than the 20th best club in England. So our young English players - even those you haven't criticised above - get to play for West Brom and Stoke. The top foreign players? They play for top clubs, their younger players? Developing at the top end of their league.

[kurtsimonw]

Also, I think some players do actually want to play for England. Unfortunately, whether it be choice of managers or whether the FA push certain things on them - generally speaking, you have to play for a club considered to be one of the big boys to even get a chance. Antonio had a superb second half of the season at West Ham, despite lacking wide men he never even seem to get so much as a mention. Albrighton played a part in every Leicester game, again not even a sniff of a chance. You get the odd one, Vardy is more of a sexy pick. Even Drinkwater was a bit part in 2 friendlies and that's it.

[rodders0223]

Sam Allardyce in the grand scheme of things is **** shit.

[Zatman]

5 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

Also, I think some players do actually want to play for England. Unfortunately, whether it be choice of managers or whether the FA push certain things on them - generally speaking, you have to play for a club considered to be one of the big boys to even get a chance. Antonio had a superb second half of the season at West Ham, despite lacking wide men he never even seem to get so much as a mention. Albrighton played a part in every Leicester game, again not even a sniff of a chance. You get the odd one, Vardy is more of a sexy pick. Even Drinkwater was a bit part in 2 friendlies and that's it.

Mark Noble is another one that should probably got a call-up. Id take Albrighton or Antonio over Sterling any day of the week

[Dr_Pangloss]

23 hours ago, bobzy said:

The Premier League/Premier League clubs are more at fault than anyone else.  There should be a limit to the amount of youth players a club can hold and a salary cap for said youth players until they've played a certain amount of senior games.

The eating up of talent, ludicrously inflated wages, ridiculous "feeder club" systems and (relatively) unlimited wealth of the Premier League is what is **** everything up.

But people love it.  They love the money being thrown around.  Look at the reaction to Xia coming in here and saying we'll be one of the top 3 clubs in the World.  Fans want to see an overhaul of a squad, large transfer fees etc.  It's no longer so much about the development of a team - everyone; fans, players, sponsors and Sky want it all right now.  Good luck, England.

Agreed, it's a market that requires some sort of intervention. Perhaps a ban on premier league clubs signing youth team players from other premier league clubs, or as you point out, a limit on the amount of youth team players on a clubs books. 

We can't have a situation where young players are simply hoarded, with no benefit to them other than maximising their own wealth, rather than maximising their own talents.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Dr_Pangloss

[Mic09]

24 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Agreed, it's a market that requires some sort of intervention. Perhaps a ban on premier league clubs signing youth team players from other premier league clubs, or as you point out, a limit on the amount of youth team players on a clubs books. 

We can't have a situation where young players are simply hoarded, with no benefit to them other than maximising their own wealth, rather than maximising their own talents.

No intervention is needed - it is a cultural thing as @villa4europe said.

Was there an intervention in Bayern when young Goetze went there for big bucks? Did anybody moan at the state of the German football? And will anybody shout if Sane goes to Man City?

If a young player wants to join Chelsea, then fair enough. Delph wasn't young, but went for the glory & money, and nobody complained that it will damage the English football - should there be rules to stop him going?

The thing is, European players are not afraid to go to Turkey, Denmark or 2nd Bundesliga and show that they are great footballers. They care about football more than the rich kids from British academies.

The problem, in my eyes, lies with people like Sterling who most likely ruined his career in the long run. Man City have offered him the money because it makes business sense for them to do that. And if Sterling is happy with this arrangement, on what ground do you have the right to intervene and stop this from happening?