England Euro 2016 Chat

[Dr_Pangloss]

1 minute ago, Mic09 said:

No intervention is needed - it is a cultural thing as @villa4europe said.

Was there an intervention in Bayern when young Goetze went there for big bucks? Did anybody moan at the state of the German football? And will anybody shout if Sane goes to Man City?

If a young player wants to join Chelsea, then fair enough. Delph wasn't young, but went for the glory & money, and nobody complained that it will damage the English football - should there be rules to stop him going?

The thing is, European players are not afraid to go to Turkey, Denmark or 2nd Bundesliga and show that they are great footballers. They care about football more than the rich kids from British academies.

The problem, in my eyes, lies with people like Sterling who most likely ruined his career in the long run. Man City have offered him the money because it makes business sense for them to do that. And if Sterling is happy with this arrangement, on what ground do you have the right to intervene and stop this from happening?

I'm talking about players below the age of 20 so Delph et al doesn't apply, and in terms of the 'right', well I guess it's called regulation, so right has nothing to do with it. Culture change is very difficult to achieve quickly, but if there are beneficial ways to intervene in the market then it absolutely should be considered. I'm not saying my suggestions are any good but something has to change and blaming culture isn't really going to provide any solutions.

[Mic09]

13 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I'm talking about players below the age of 20 so Delph et al doesn't apply, and in terms of the 'right', well I guess it's called regulation, so right has nothing to do with it. Culture change is very difficult to achieve quickly, but if there are beneficial ways to intervene in the market then it absolutely should be considered. I'm not saying my suggestions are any good but something has to change and blaming culture isn't really going to provide any solutions.

If that was to happen, one of the side effects could be that no young foreign players would want to move to UK as they would not be able to change clubs if they wished to do so, hence making our league less competitive. Regulating open markets hardly ever brings the desired effect.

 Maybe Delph wasn't the best example, but Goetze was - these things happen in Germany as well, yet their football is doing much better than ours, so is less of a chance for a  direct correlation.

[Dr_Pangloss]

3 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

If that was to happen, one of the side effects could be that no young foreign players would want to move to UK as they would not be able to change clubs if they wished to do so, hence making our league less competitive. Regulating open markets hardly ever brings the desired effect.

 Maybe Delph wasn't the best example, but Goetze was - these things happen in Germany as well, yet their football is doing much better than ours, so is less of a chance for a  direct correlation.

That's total hyperbole. There would still be many a talented foreign player wanting to move to the UK to play for Premier League team. 

[villa4europe]

the difference with german football is they seem to understand that the move will come at one stage in their career, no doubt there are a fair few that we dont hear about but most of their current national team seem to have played 2/3 seasons at their first club and then got the big move, not many of them are getting big moves before they've kicked a ball, its very much a modern day english problem, people want everything now, little patience and with as little effort as possible

gotze wasnt at an age thats comparable to the point i was making, he'd been at dortmund 12 years before moving, 4 of them as a professional, he wasnt a yoof picking the bright lights of bayern over his development at a good club (not a top club at that stage mind)

part of that even seems to be the acceptance by the parent club in terms of the contracts that if bayern come calling then the player will be sold, bayern are happily buying germany's best 22/23 year olds, they arent stockpiling the U19 team stunting their development, dare i say it bayerns transfer fees are actually somewhere near sensible compared to the english tax

gotze, boateng, neuer, kimmich, all bought in their early 20s after playing a fair bit of football elsewhere

the bundesliga suffering because of bayerns transfer policy of strengthening themselves by weakening the opponents is another discussion...but at least the national team doesnt suffer from that policy

 

Edited July 15, 2016 by villa4europe

[BOF]

1 minute ago, villa4europe said:

the difference with german football is they seem to understand that the move will come at one stage in their career, no doubt there are a fair few that we dont hear about but most of their current national team seem to have played 2/3 seasons at their first club and then got the big move, not many of them are getting big moves before they've kicked a ball, its very much a modern day english problem, people want everything now, little patience and with as little effort as possible

gotze wasnt at an age thats comparable to the point i was making, he'd been at dortmund 12 years before moving, 4 of them as a professional, he wasnt a yoof picking the bright lights of bayern over his development at a good club (not a top club at that stage mind)

part of that even seems to be the acceptance by the parent club in terms of the contracts that if bayern come calling then the player will be sold, bayern are happily buying germany's best 22/23 year olds, they arent stockpiling the U19 team stunting their development, dare i say it bayerns transfer fees are actually somewhere near sensible compared to the english tax

gotze, boateng, neuer, kimmich, all bought in their early 20s after playing a fair bit of football elsewhere

the bundesliga suffering because of bayerns transfer policy of strengthening themselves by weakening the opponents is another discussion...but at least the national team doesnt suffer from that policy

 

This kind of gets at the core problem for me.  It's money.  Simple as that.  Let me explain my thinking.

If you are 18-20 at a decent sized club in Germany, in all likelyhood you're not going to get a £100k a week move to another club.  Obviously if you're the next Müller and Bayern come calling then maybe, but that's an exception.  For 99.9% of young players the financial incentive isn't there to anything like the same degree as it is in the Premier League, so they stick around, they learn their trade and then they move at a more natural career progression pace.  Which is good for the player, the national team and the selling club - and ultimately the league in general.

Whereas in England, there is so much money floating around that clubs all around the Premier League think nothing (or very little) of speculating on a promising youngster in the hope of stealing a march on the likes of Chelsea if he happens to fulfil his potential (thereby reducing his chance of fulfilling his potential).  The players get exposed to hoooj amounts of money far earlier into their progression (playingwise and maturity wise) and, quite understandably, they jump at the chance.  Now you've got a spoiled brat with everything he ever wanted before his 20th birthday, under-developed as a footballer, at a probably decent club who don't need him yet, and in a squad he can't break into.  So he either trains getting no competitive game time or you loan him out to probably a lower level?  Great.  Two different ways to rot.

Even Raheem Sterling, who could break into the City side doesn't look like he gives a toss, and he should be the exception, but he's not.  He's the outstanding example of the problem.  Obviously the Rodwells of the world are the more typical example of what I describe.  I don't even blame the players.  They don't know how long their careers will be so they make hay.  I'd be pretty sure most of us would do the same thing.  But it doesn't do the clubs, league or national side any good whatsoever.

[villa4europe]

nail on the head

[Mic09]

3 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

That's total hyperbole. There would still be many a talented foreign player wanting to move to the UK to play for Premier League team. 

I said 'it could be' not that it definitely will

Also, if you were in a profession where your skills would make you a desired player on the market at the age of 14/15, surely you would be against any sort of restrictions of where you can or can't work.

[Mic09]

Another thing to bear in mind is that footballers play until they are 35. Imagine you are 20 years old and you earn a few thousand a week and get the opportunity to move to Man United for 60k a week.

Imagine you decline this offer, as you want to progress you career steadily, and a few weeks later you break your leg and you are never the player you once were.  

Looking at it from this perspective, I am not surprised these players are taking these contracts.

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

Another thing to bear in mind is that footballers play until they are 35. Imagine you are 20 years old and you earn a few thousand a week and get the opportunity to move to Man United for 60k a week.

Imagine you decline this offer, as you want to progress you career steadily, and a few weeks later you break your leg and you are never the player you once were.  

Looking at it from this perspective, I am not surprised these players are taking these contracts.

We've had a couple of instances in the past of people not being sure about leaving our local little club. They've liked it, they've been 'family' and they've been biggish fish in a small pond. Then, Cardiff or Swansea have offered proper professional contracts and the kids have been worried about leaving.

To his credit the manager has explained to them that next week or next season they could have a career ending injury. If that happens at Swansea they will give the best care and a good payout. If they stay and it happens here, they'll basically get a card signed by all the boys.

[VillaChris]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

Another thing to bear in mind is that footballers play until they are 35. Imagine you are 20 years old and you earn a few thousand a week and get the opportunity to move to Man United for 60k a week.

Imagine you decline this offer, as you want to progress you career steadily, and a few weeks later you break your leg and you are never the player you once were.  

Looking at it from this perspective, I am not surprised these players are taking these contracts.

Depends where you're playing though. League 1 or 2 club fair enough, you'd have to be insane not to take the move.

Playing for a decent premier league club though, they can offer a contract probably not far off what you'd be earning at the other club.

Is Izzy Brown on more money now in Chelsea reserves or would he be on more if he'd stayed at West Brom and become a first team regular there.

Would Daniel Crowley be on more money if he'd stayed here and broke through into our first team than what he is getting at Arsenal?

[HanoiVillan]

7 hours ago, villa4europe said:

the difference with german football is they seem to understand that the move will come at one stage in their career, no doubt there are a fair few that we dont hear about but most of their current national team seem to have played 2/3 seasons at their first club and then got the big move, not many of them are getting big moves before they've kicked a ball, its very much a modern day english problem, people want everything now, little patience and with as little effort as possible

gotze wasnt at an age thats comparable to the point i was making, he'd been at dortmund 12 years before moving, 4 of them as a professional, he wasnt a yoof picking the bright lights of bayern over his development at a good club (not a top club at that stage mind)

part of that even seems to be the acceptance by the parent club in terms of the contracts that if bayern come calling then the player will be sold, bayern are happily buying germany's best 22/23 year olds, they arent stockpiling the U19 team stunting their development, dare i say it bayerns transfer fees are actually somewhere near sensible compared to the english tax

gotze, boateng, neuer, kimmich, all bought in their early 20s after playing a fair bit of football elsewhere

the bundesliga suffering because of bayerns transfer policy of strengthening themselves by weakening the opponents is another discussion...but at least the national team doesnt suffer from that policy

 

So then the question becomes, would you trade an exciting top division for 35 weeks every year for a better shot at national glory for four weeks every two years?

[kurtsimonw]

The problem is the Premier League. There's too much money, there's too many foreigners in both playing and managing. The win now mentality and the massive competitiveness of the league means you can't afford to spend years developing a player when you can spend £20m, which is pennies, on a ready made product elsewhere. Because all Premier League clubs have this money, why would Everton sell John Stones to Chelsea for £30m, when they know Chelsea have well over £100m to spend? Why sell an asset for £30m when they already have £100m to improve the squad? So they go abroad and buy a more proven player for a team where £20m is unseen riches.

Although, on the Bundesliga, you have players like Kroos, Ozil, Volland, Can, who got big moves in their mid/late teens before kicking a ball. Most of Germany's top players already played for a big club academy so they didn't need to move to one. Germany having so few truly relevant clubs definitely helps them IMO.

[ml1dch]

19 hours ago, Mic09 said:

The problem, in my eyes, lies with people like Sterling who most likely ruined his career in the long run. Man City have offered him the money because it makes business sense for them to do that. And if Sterling is happy with this arrangement, on what ground do you have the right to intervene and stop this from happening?

Why is playing nearly 50 matches in a season in his preferred position for Man City worse for his future career than being used as an auxiliary wing-back by Brendan Rodgers?

[Mic09]

On 16.07.2016 at 08:38, ml1dch said:

Why is playing nearly 50 matches in a season in his preferred position for Man City worse for his future career than being used as an auxiliary wing-back by Brendan Rodgers?

It is yet to be seen whether this will actually be the case. If you look at my post, I said 'most likely' - it is most likely because, I think we can all agree, Sterling is not even in the top 10 players that play this position in the world. Man City will surely get better. The 50 games a season player will turn into a League Cup starter, and before you know he will end up in Southampton or even worse in Sunderland. Man City cannot afford a player who half delivers, and I cant see them using one now they have Guardiola.

 I wish him all the best, and I think he went to City as he thought he could make it. I don't blame him for doing so, I just think that, with the benefit of the hindsight, it was not a good move. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Mic09

[kurtsimonw]

In the last 3 seasons he's scored 33 goals and made 34 assists. That's 67 goals he's contributed towards. Mesut Ozil, in the same period, has contributed towards 62. While playing in the same league. One of these is in their prime. The other is 21.

If he wasn't English, had a shit Euros and moved to a money team that everyone hates he wouldn't be getting anywhere near the hate he does. It's way over the top. Some players can't win though. On one hand people say English players get overrated and whatever, then the next minute they're saying a 18-21 year old winger contributing nearly 25 goals a season is shit.

He's far from a bad player. In fact he's a very good one. He's just not the best in the World. No 21 year old is.

Edited July 18, 2016 by kurtsimonw

[PaulC]

I thought he looked a really good player 2013/14 but seems to have struggled to live up to the expectations since then. Maybe he will fufill his potential but not sure he will get much of a look-in with pep. 

[villa4europe]

44 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I wish him all the best, and I think he went to City as he thought he could make it. I don't blame him for doing so, I just think that, with the benefit of the hindsight, it was not a good move. 

impossible to tell yet, i think he'd have had that dip last season regardless of where he was, the liverpool set up the previous year made him look brilliant

personally said it many times i think his technical ability at times looks like something you'd see in a pub league, he can look like bambi on ice. all gangly and unsure whats hes doing, running with the ball but never actually in control of it

will be a good player next season under pep, city wont replace him, they've got a bigger issue with navas 

[rodders0223]

Quote

Hull boss Steve Bruce was interviewed by the Football Association on Monday about the England manager's job.

Sunderland boss Sam Allardyce has also been interviewed and is favourite to succeed Roy Hodgson, who quit after England lost to Iceland at Euro 2016.

Bruce, 55, led Hull back into the Premier League last season after relegation to the Championship in 2015.

Bournemouth manager Eddie Howe and USA coach Jurgen Klinsmann have also been linked with the role.

Just imagine that fat, red faced mess representing our nation at a major tournament.

[Zatman]

Steve Bruce is such a bad manager I dont think he would even qualify England for a World Cup

pity Alex Bruce decided to play for Northern Ireland, he could have got a few England caps

Edited July 19, 2016 by Zatman

[Zatman]

nice package about Steve Bruce managerial highlights. one of them is Peter Enckelman