The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, Chindie said:

The argument that releasing these impact studies would somehow harm the negotiations is absolutely pants on head stupid....

It isn't, though. There's two conflicting, and valid perspectives here.

Clearly, the idea that people (all of us) should be able to see and consider the overall and different sector imapcts of the whole idiotic shenanigans is compelling. As the whole Brexit thing has been based on sets of lies and distortions and waffle and the like, the more "proper" information we can get the better.

Equally this availability of info to MPs and MSPs etc would, or ought ot be helpful and informative for them to take decisions around.

But it's also transparently evident that revealling the impact assessments would weaken "our" hand in the bargaining/negotiations as is also the case the other way round - where the UK knows or belives that Brexit will particularly hurt all or part of the continet, then the UK has and will play on that - we've seen May, Fox and other clowns talk about "security co-operation" as a veiled threat. Morally it's repugnant (as are they) but it's a real thing. Same with the "BMWs and Wine" lines - the UK knows that Brexit and tarriffs will hurt German car makers etc. and it will be used as a bargaining chip.

If the EU team were to see a clear UK Gov't assessement that Brexit will cause (more) trauma to the NHS, or to Air Travel, or etc. then they will absolutely use that to extract more money or concessions.

Further it creates lines in the sand. IF the UK is mean on citizens rights, then for example Poland's gov't is going to be particularly cross and will either want a lot of money to accept the mean approach of the UK, or will veto a deal until or unless the UK changes it's stance.

"Don't tell 'em your name Pike"

 

[Chindie]

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

It isn't, though. There's two conflicting, and valid perspectives here.

Clearly, the idea that people (all of us) should be able to see and consider the overall and different sector imapcts of the whole idiotic shenanigans is compelling. As the whole Brexit thing has been based on sets of lies and distortions and waffle and the like, the more "proper" information we can get the better.

Equally this availability of info to MPs and MSPs etc would, or ought ot be helpful and informative for them to take decisions around.

But it's also transparently evident that revealling the impact assessments would weaken "our" hand in the bargaining/negotiations as is also the case the other way round - where the UK knows or belives that Brexit will particularly hurt all or part of the continet, then the UK has and will play on that - we've seen May, Fox and other clowns talk about "security co-operation" as a veiled threat. Morally it's repugnant (as are they) but it's a real thing. Same with the "BMWs and Wine" lines - the UK knows that Brexit and tarriffs will hurt German car makers etc. and it will be used as a bargaining chip.

If the EU team were to see a clear UK Gov't assessement that Brexit will cause (more) trauma to the NHS, or to Air Travel, or etc. then they will absolutely use that to extract more money or concessions.

Further it creates lines in the sand. IF the UK is mean on citizens rights, then for example Poland's gov't is going to be particularly cross and will either want a lot of money to accept the mean approach of the UK, or will veto a deal until or unless the UK changes it's stance.

"Don't tell 'em your name Pike"

 

It isn't transparently evident 

The EU is already aware of these figures. They know the amount of business they do with us. They know the impact that will have on both us and them. They have published their own versions of these studies. They know the likely ultimate bottom line of the outcomes of various deals. They're aware of the difficulties of making new deals that the UK will have, as they do enough of them themselves. There are private companies that are doing their own versions of these studies constantly, hence the seminar I mentioned the other day.

It's not a bargaining chip. The only bargaining chip is the extent to which either side will concede on red lines and the part of it's body the UK is prepared to fire it's own gun at.

It's being withheld for domestic reasons alone.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Chindie

[LondonLax]

The very notion from the government that if the EU saw the analysis it would weakening the governments hand in negotiations is admitting the results are bad.

A good outlook would strengthen the UK hand and the government would be releasing the information to show they don't need anything from the EU. 

[choffer]

[NurembergVillan]

 

Is now the right time to start feeling really quite scared about the way this shit is heading?

[Chindie]

Just the Heil returning to type.

There's an undoubted, imo, rise of the populist nationalism that only takes a slight push to go full fascist though. And the person allegedly in charge is power mad. Not a great mix.

[bickster]

23 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

 

How many DM readers do we suspect have actually attended university since Brexit has been a thing?

I'm guessing it’s downward of 0.01%

[NurembergVillan]

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

How many DM readers do we suspect have actually attended university since Brexit has been a thing?

I'm guessing it’s downward of 0.01%

I think the paper and the website would provide wildly different stats.

Teaching on a fashion course last year, I would say the majority of the students (and the vast majority of them were girls) would read the Mail Online daily, and largely have the app on their phones.

Obviously this is anecdotal, and I didn't quiz the students it was more something that came up in conversation, but they always manage to pad out the propaganda with enough celebrity claptrap and gossip to draw people in for that and allow them to become racist by osmosis.

[markavfc40]

40 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

 

Is now the right time to start feeling really quite scared about the way this shit is heading?

I don't think so. If anything I think if there is a rise in the far right and it goes full on fascist then you will see a huge push back against that as moderate brexiteers won't want to be associated with the extremists.

[HanoiVillan]

But . . . but  . . . but . . . 

 

 

OCTOBER 18th, 2017

 

 

 

 

 

 

OCTOBER 25th, 2017

 

 

[chrisp65]

First they came for the immigrants, and I did not speak out.

For I am not an immigrant.

Then they came for the judges, and I did not speak out.

For I am not a judge.

Then they came for the Universities...

 

 

[HanoiVillan]

You don't know what you're doing, you don't know what you're doing . . .

[ml1dch]

58 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

First they came for the immigrants, and I did not speak out.

For I am not an immigrant.

Then they came for the judges, and I did not speak out.

For I am not a judge.

Then they came for the Universities...

If I were a betting man and this were a market that existed, I'd be having a wager on civil servants being the next group to have fingers pointed at them.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

First they came for the immigrants, and I did not speak out.

For I am not an immigrant.

Then they came for the judges, and I did not speak out.

For I am not a judge.

Then they came for the Universities...

 

 

They came for the palmists, but I wasn’t a palmist so I did nothing
They came for the bungee jumpers, but I wasn’t a bungee jumper so I did nothing
They came for the players’ agents, but I wasn’t a players’ agent so I did nothing
They came for the Charles Manson fans, but I wasn’t a Charles Manson fan so I did nothing
They came for the reflexologists, but I wasn’t a reflexologist so I did nothing
They came for the camp TV chefs, but I wasn’t a camp TV chef so I did nothing
They came for the RoMos, I laughed
They came for the martial arts enthusiasts, but I wasn’t a martial arts enthusiast so I did nothing
They came for Eamonn Holmes and I think I’m right in saying I applauded
They came for the fire-eaters, but I wasn’t a fire-eater so I did nothing
They came for Dani Behr, I said she’s over there, behind the wardrobe
Turn a blind eye, sometimes it’s best to
Turn a blind eye....

 

Nigel Blackwell, HMHB

[bickster]

2 hours ago, NurembergVillan said:

I think the paper and the website would provide wildly different stats.

Teaching on a fashion course last year, I would say the majority of the students (and the vast majority of them were girls) would read the Mail Online daily, and largely have the app on their phones.

Obviously this is anecdotal, and I didn't quiz the students it was more something that came up in conversation, but they always manage to pad out the propaganda with enough celebrity claptrap and gossip to draw people in for that and allow them to become racist by osmosis.

That was clearly cut out of a newspaper 

[mjmooney]

Socrates was condemned to death for corrupting the minds of youth. The Athenian chief prosecutor proclaimed that only government employees were true teachers of good, while the 'so-called sages' were merely malicious saboteurs of the foundations of society. According to Plato, Socrates asked whether the prosecutor was acquainted with any sages, and received the reply that, no, he was not, nor would he wish to be, but that he strived to inflict as much harm on them as possible. 

That story is apocryphal, but what is verifiable is that when the Nazis rolled into conquered cities, one of their first actions was to raid the universities, round up as many lecturers and students as they could, and execute them. 

Of course, it couldn't happen here... 

[StefanAVFC]

As tragic as it is, educated and intelligent people are viewed as a threat by many.

 

 

and the rhetoric from both the print media and the government continues to fuel that fire.

Edited October 26, 2017 by StefanAVFC

[tonyh29]

28 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Socrates was condemned to death for corrupting the minds of youth. The Athenian chief prosecutor proclaimed that only government employees were true teachers of good, while the 'so-called sages' were merely malicious saboteurs of the foundations of society. According to Plato, Socrates asked whether the prosecutor was acquainted with any sages, and received the reply that, no, he was not, nor would he wish to be, but that he strived to inflict as much harm on them as possible. 

That story is apocryphal, but what is verifiable is that when the Nazis rolled into conquered cities, one of their first actions was to raid the universities, round up as many lecturers and students as they could, and execute them. 

Of course, it couldn't happen here... 

it will probably happen the same day the shelves are empty of food  and the skies over Heathrow go quiet 

 

[tonyh29]

23 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

As tragic as it is, educated and intelligent people are viewed as a threat by many.

and the rhetoric from both the print media and the government continues to fuel that fire.

Unless you hang out with lots of members of the Taliban ,  I can't say that's a statement I can agree with or have seen any evidence of  ... 

 

A distrust of people who hang Ernesto  Guevara posters on their dormitory walls  , well yes maybe  , but I've not seen any evidence of this "threat" view

[ml1dch]

20 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

it will probably happen the same day the shelves are empty of food  and the skies over Heathrow go quiet 

 

Guess you missed Ivan Rogers evidence to the Treasury Committee yesterday then?