The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Davkaus]

31 minutes ago, Danwichmann said:

I bet it also says Turkey are set to join the EU?

Is it the one Nissan are taking legal action against? 

Ha, it is. 2 days after they're threatened with legal action, they're still sending it out.

[Davkaus]

10 minutes ago, mikeyp102 said:

Both sides have printed misleading bullshit

Cool, I'd prosecute the other lot too, I'm not taking sides.

[mjmooney]

23 minutes ago, CarewsEyebrowDesigner said:

In the event of a Remain win I do hope that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are flung from catapults and never seen again.

Don't forget Farage and IDS. 

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

edit: perhaps in poor taste

Edited June 22, 2016 by CarewsEyebrowDesigner

[dAVe80]

[Danwichmann]

Just glad it's almost over. Remainer or Brexier, I think we'll pretty much all agree the way the campaigns have been fought have showcased the very worst of British politics. 

[Chindie]

2 hours ago, Davkaus said:

Ha, it is. 2 days after they're threatened with legal action, they're still sending it out.

Came home to it through my door as well.

Along with a flyer to get a free book on the biblical view on European unity. Honestly. The guff on the back send to suggest that European unity is a bad thing going back to the Romans. Which I think is completely unironic in a 'what did the Romans every do for us' kinda way

[a m ole]

1 hour ago, Danwichmann said:

Just glad it's almost over. Remainer or Brexier, I think we'll pretty much all agree the way the campaigns have been fought have showcased the very worst of British politics. 

Yes, and what is worrying is that these are highly educated, successful and manipulative people fronting these campaigns - they have taken the approach they did because it works on the majority of people. It's been 4 months and the guy next to me at work was still spouting generic phrases like "taking back control of our laws" - when I challenged him about what laws in the UK are under the control of the EU and why he feels it affects his life and he couldn't think of one.

Edited June 22, 2016 by a m ole

[OutByEaster?]

One thing this has contributed to is that we're a more politically active nation than we have been for as long as I can remember - there are a lot of peculiar views in that, but there's a movement to believing that these things matter again which I think is positive.

I would hope we can use that to influence the way in which we want to be informed on politics and would hope that then results in better print media and better TV News, if it doesn't, I wonder if those media's will eventually suffer from our desire to find those things elsewhere. 

For the first time in a long time, the British public seems aware that we're being manipulated by people that think we're idiots. I think that could end up being the best positive that comes from this referendum.

[Nicho]

10 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

One thing this has contributed to is that we're a more politically active nation than we have been for as long as I can remember - there are a lot of peculiar views in that, but there's a movement to believing that these things matter again which I think is positive.

I would hope we can use that to influence the way in which we want to be informed on politics and would hope that then results in better print media and better TV News, if it doesn't, I wonder if those media's will eventually suffer from our desire to find those things elsewhere. 

For the first time in a long time, the British public seems aware that we're being manipulated by people that think we're idiots. I think that could end up being the best positive that comes from this referendum.

Very much agree with this.

ive not been able to get through any of the debates due to every time I try the first two questions don't get answered and it becomes point scoring. People have too many sources now so unless your will to present positive stats while also addressing a negative argument the comments become irrelevant. Politicians seem unable too or unwilling to approach critical thinking on the matter and seem to think the public will just lap it up.

However I don't know many if any leavers that have changed their mind over the last few months. Peoples minds were made up for what ever reason without hearing any supporting argument, where as it seems more people that were on the fence will vote in.

[Chindie]

The professor that did the very good video on the EU has written sine further details that deal more pointedly with immigration.

Quote

...

– as regards those EU nationals who come to the UK: it is completely dishonest of prominent Leave campaigners repeatedly to claim that there is some sort of unconditional right to move to and settle in another Member State.  We all have a right to circulate – that is the basis on which, e.g. we go on holiday to Spain and France.  But when it comes to settling in another country, there are three main categories of right under EU law: for the economically active (ie in work and paying taxes); for students (eg enrolled at university and thus paying tuition fees); and for those wealthy enough to look after themselves and their families without relying on public benefits.  There is no right to “benefit tourism” under EU law.

...

Link where he raises a few more points (some you should already have heard... And also he misses adding the point on Eastern European immigration that when we refused to introduce limits following the first Eastern European ascension that we had a boost on or economy, along with the other 2 countries that didn't) but that one seemed the most relevant.

Again, worth a read.

[tonyh29]

Are these the benefit tourists that Cameron used to give speeches against and then secured a deal with the EU over that remain have been championing over the past few months as prof of how we can reform the EU ?

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

One thing this has contributed to is that we're a more politically active nation than we have been for as long as I can remember - there are a lot of peculiar views in that, but there's a movement to believing that these things matter again which I think is positive.

I would hope we can use that to influence the way in which we want to be informed on politics and would hope that then results in better print media and better TV News, if it doesn't, I wonder if those media's will eventually suffer from our desire to find those things elsewhere. 

For the first time in a long time, the British public seems aware that we're being manipulated by people that think we're idiots. I think that could end up being the best positive that comes from this referendum.

It's because the British public are aware that voting ACTUALLY matters this time. This is a big decision and we can actually have an effect on it.

Much like the Scottish referendum. People voted in their droves because they felt like they were having an effect.

 

Whereas voting in general elections doesn't matter. You're just voting for one shit head out of any number of shitheads, who'll all do the same thing if they're in power, whilst arguing that they wouldn't have done that thing if they're not in power. They're all as bad as each other.

I fully expect voting numbers to skyrocket for this vote, and then plummet again the next time we have "normal" elections. 

[mikeyp102]

I think in will win, purely because I think those still on the fence will decide it's easier to keep things the same.

[HanoiVillan]

Choose your elites – I’ll go with the ones that have done some proper work

'A commonly heard complaint every time you hear people interviewed is that they want the facts. That’s pretty difficult, given that we are talking about what might happen in the future but most of those who have analysed the data and used it to model the various scenarios have drawn similar conclusions. The numbers might be different but the story is the same.

The IFS report summarised them:

Apart from Economists for Brexit and Open Europe’s most optimistic scenario, every other study has concluded that the economy would be smaller by 2030 if we left the EU. The projections range from horrendous to merely unpleasant.

The estimates for the short-term hit are, if anything, even worse as they occur over a shorter period.

. . . The trouble is, as Janan says, most of us don’t have the resources to weather that storm. It may indeed turn out more-or-less OK in the end. It’s possible that, by 2030, the economy might not be that much worse. It might even be slightly better, though I doubt it. But in the meantime, our already fragile economy, with its slowing growth, flatlining productivity and an inability to cope with the sort of interest rates we used to think of as normal, will have been given another kicking. That means even slower pay growth if we are lucky and possibly pay cuts and unemployment if we are not. Even for those of us in relatively secure jobs, that’s another five years the youngsters have to save to buy a house and another five years the middle-aged have to work before they can retire. In short, with the economy as it is, another recession would be enough to finish a lot of us off.

. . . 

Leaving the EU is a one-way door. The onus is on the people who want the change to make the case and they haven’t come anywhere near.

When choosing which elites to believe, I am more inclined to go with the ones that have given this some proper thought; the organisations who have looked at the numbers in detail and used sound methodologies to draw their conclusions. Should we leave the EU, none of them will be right, at least not exactly, but they will probably not be far short of the mark. When lots of clever people have crunched the numbers and have come to a broadly similar conclusion, there is probably something in what they say.

There is no elitist conspiracy here. Just about everybody who has looked at the evidence in any detail believes that leaving the EU would be a disaster for the UK. You may describe some of the people who say this as establishment but they are no more so than their critics. The difference is that those warning about the dangers of leaving the EU have actually done some work.'

https://flipchartfairytales.wordpress.com/2016/05/27/choose-your-elites-ill-go-with-the-ones-that-have-done-some-proper-work/

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HV here

It's worth remembering that the government have said they want to eliminate the deficit by the end of the decade. That is their stated target. Just try to imagine the damage they will have to inflict, in tax rises or spending cuts, to make that happen after the economy has shrunk in the wake of Brexit. We're looking at years of hardship. On a purely personal level, I was 22 when the economy crashed in 2008. I'll be 44 when we get to 2030. I don't want half my working life to be spent with barely a smidgen of GDP growth. Let's take a second and consider the damage we could inflict on ourselves. Vote Remain. 

[brommy]

21 minutes ago, mikeyp102 said:

I think in will win, purely because I think those still on the fence will decide it's easier to keep things the same.

I suspect the same - 56% remain is my guess.

Despite the current polls, the result will be a shock to many of my family, friends, neighbours and work colleagues. They all keep saying they only know one or two 'remainers'. The polls and bookies indicate there are more remainers, but certainly not in my circles.

I worry about a post remain surge towards UKIP and that unfortunately Farage is on a 'win - win' whatever the result.

[dogbonus]

6 hours ago, mikeyp102 said:

I think in will win, purely because I think those still on the fence will decide it's easier to keep things the same.

But a vote to remain is not a vote for things to remain the same.

It is a vote for greater european integration and EU expansion. The ultimate aim of the EU is to create a united states of europe. It was sold to us 40 years ago as simply a trading bloc and Ted Heath admitted in 1990 that was not the case. Let us hope that in 40 years time people are not looking at what has been created and saying that was not what they voted for

[Genie]

6 hours ago, brommy said:

Despite the current polls, the result will be a shock to many of my family, friends, neighbours and work colleagues. They all keep saying they only know one or two 'remainers'. The polls and bookies indicate there are more remainers, but certainly not in my circles.

People voting remain don't seem to feel the need to advertise the fact or convert others, unlike those voting out.

[V01]

Voted. Another guy was there, and he actually asked if you had to use a pencil because someone had said the votes will be rubbed out and changed. 

Took that as my cue for a swift exit. 

[Fairy In Boots]

I've voted leave. Both campaigns have descended into farce. 

 

It's a about the supremacy of our parliament and its democratic accountability all else is just noise. I'm not comfortable with people making decisions that effect me when they've got no accountability to me and others democratically. 

Its what the whole thing should have been about, we've got lost in UKIP & Project fear spin