MentalM Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 I believe Davis lacks finishing abilities. I also believe Davis has a contribution similar to Heskey. A defensive forward doing a lot of griddy work. Thus meaning I believe Davis has a role to play at where we are at the moment, he can help ride out games we are ahead in. However I am worried when Wesley is so far from fit and Watkins being our only attacker. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Five Ken McNaughts Posted January 7, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 7, 2021 I was trying to think of a different metric to measure Keinan’s relative worth, or otherwise, to the squad. Something other than the two well-known viewpoints: “His hold-up play is good / He doesn’t score enough goals”. So, focusing purely on what he brings as a sub – since that is realistically his role at Villa – here’s what I came up with. It won’t settle anything, but I found it interesting nonetheless... From the start of last season to now, Davis has come off the bench in 18 Premier League games (ave. just under 17 mins). In those 18 games, Villa have scored after Davis’ introduction in a third (6/18). We have improved our points haul from the game in a sixth (3/18). In 14 of the 18 matches, our points haul has stayed the same. In only 1 of the 18 has our points haul worsened, and that comes with a massive asterisk (Davis came on at 0-0 away to Palace with Villa down to ten men. As none of us can forget, we lost 1-0 thanks to that smirking assassin Kevin Friend). So, like I said, I don’t expect it to change anyone’s mind, but it’s a different way of looking at things and, to me, it doesn’t look too shabby. A net positive for your 17 minutes, I’d say. At the very least enough to address the question: “What’s the point in bringing on Keinan Davis?” 12 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 On 05/01/2021 at 19:40, AV82 said: How many full 90 minute matches has he completed for Villa? Anyone know? I would like to see him start in one of the upcoming fixtures after the Man City game and see what he is capable of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-R Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Davis on loan would be better, let him discover himself abit more and have him at least play somewhere that's less punishing towards someone who's struggling to score goals. I do acknowledge that he does alot of work else where and I've said many a time maybe he could be utilised in other positions if hes not popping up with goals. If he is struggling to score in the prem, then we either need to loan him out, sell him on or make use of him in other ways, it's not a tough one to figure out. It's tough at this level when your playing in a role and lacking one major feature that would complete your performances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abdulaziz1 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 20 minutes ago, Dave-R said: Davis on loan would be better, let him discover himself abit more and have him at least play somewhere that's less punishing towards someone who's struggling to score goals. I do acknowledge that he does alot of work else where and I've said many a time maybe he could be utilised in other positions if hes not popping up with goals. If he is struggling to score in the prem, then we either need to loan him out, sell him on or make use of him in other ways, it's not a tough one to figure out. It's tough at this level when your playing in a role and lacking one major feature that would complete your performances. How would he score while he plays less the 10 minutes? He only started 3-4 games last season. Twice were against Liverpool and Man Utd. Let’s play him against lesser teams and see. Samatta only had one shot last season post lockdown. Davis used to average one or two chances whenever he gets 20-30 mins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, abdulaziz1 said: How would he score while he plays less the 10 minutes? He only started 3-4 games last season. Twice were against Liverpool and Man Utd. Let’s play him against lesser teams and see. Samatta only had one shot last season post lockdown. Davis used to average one or two chances whenever he gets 20-30 mins. Because we have seen him so much in past, he’s never proven he’s good enough at this level. You say he’s only gets 10 minutes here and there, yet in the Championship and Premier League he’s had 2,251 minutes for us. You say he used to get one or two chances whenever he gets 20-30 mins, how many has he scored? ....not good enough. People say well, if he doesn’t score he can help others...he actually has less assists during his time with us than goals he’s scored if you can believe that. He needs to go out on loan and prove himself to us that he has something that’s worth us continuing with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abdulaziz1 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 11 minutes ago, nick76 said: Because we have seen him so much in past, he’s never proven he’s good enough at this level. You say he’s only gets 10 minutes here and there, yet in the Championship and Premier League he’s had 2,251 minutes for us. You say he used to get one or two chances whenever he gets 20-30 mins, how many has he scored? ....not good enough. People say well, if he doesn’t score he can help others...he actually has less assists during his time with us than goals he’s scored if you can believe that. He needs to go out on loan and prove himself to us that he has something that’s worth us continuing with him. Having chances more than other strikers is a good point actually. I worry more about players failing to get chances. El Ghazi missed a lot against Burnley, but that showed us and him that he can score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, AvfcRigo82 said: I would like to see him start in one of the upcoming fixtures after the Man City game and see what he is capable of. The problem is to really see what he’s capable of, or not, he probably needs to start in a run of games and that could be an expensive experiment. It’s just not going to happen unless we’re in a real injury crisis. It’s hard not to like the kid and he does have some qualities but unfortunately for a striker he just doesn’t seem to have the nack of putting the ball in the net. If we played two up front it would be easier to give him a chance but we don’t. Maybe we could move Ollie out wide, keeping Ollie’s goal threat and play him as the central striker but again it could be an expensive experiment. Edited January 17, 2021 by DaveAV1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 32 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said: The problem is to really see what he’s capable of, or not, he probably needs to start in a run of games and that could be an expensive experiment. It’s just not going to happen unless we’re in a real injury crisis. It’s hard not to like the kid and he does have some qualities but unfortunately for a striker he just doesn’t seem to have the nack of putting the ball in the net. If we played two up front it would be easier to give him a chance but we don’t. Maybe we could move Ollie out wide, keeping Ollie’s goal threat and play him as the central striker but again it could be an expensive experiment. Sorry, just silly to accomodate a player who can’t score and displace/move a player whose going through a dry spell. Even if you are a Davis fan and have unplaced faith of him coming good, how detrimental would this have to Watkins confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, nick76 said: Sorry, just silly to accomodate a player who can’t score and displace/move a player whose going through a dry spell. Even if you are a Davis fan and have unplaced faith of him coming good, how detrimental would this have to Watkins confidence. I agree 100%. Sadly I can’t see Davis scoring goals at this level. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 5 hours ago, DaveAV1 said: The problem is to really see what he’s capable of, or not, he probably needs to start in a run of games and that could be an expensive experiment. It’s just not going to happen unless we’re in a real injury crisis. It’s hard not to like the kid and he does have some qualities but unfortunately for a striker he just doesn’t seem to have the nack of putting the ball in the net. If we played two up front it would be easier to give him a chance but we don’t. Maybe we could move Ollie out wide, keeping Ollie’s goal threat and play him as the central striker but again it could be an expensive experiment. I do agree with what you are saying about Davis, I guess my post was more aimed at the usage of squad depth during these quick turn around of fixtures that we have coming up which I don't think I explained and put across properly. You're right Dave, to get a real idea of what Davis might be capable of he would need a good stretch of 4 or 5 games in a row atleast to see if there is anything salvageable with the player. It indeed would be a risky experiment this season to do that as it stands. That said, when would ever be a good time to try this to see if he is actually going to have a future here and if he is to make it at this level? Is that time now to try this? Definately not imo. However, the main point I was thinking was to start Davis against say Newcastle or Burnley and give him 60 or so minutes of the game and bring Ollie on after then. This is only on the basis of it allowing us to keep Ollie fresh too for the following tough fixtures that follow these ones. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, nick76 said: Sorry, just silly to accomodate a player who can’t score and displace/move a player whose going through a dry spell. Even if you are a Davis fan and have unplaced faith of him coming good, how detrimental would this have to Watkins confidence. Again I agree Nick and we have have been here before mate and we both know our feelings of Davis. My concern would be that we don't want Ollie playing 5 games in quick succession and then he's nakered while we have no one else to replace him if he got injured? A little squad rotated rest in the middle of these fixtures was the main part of what I was trying to get to. Personally, I just wondered if it was something that might be an idea which also keeps Ollie fresh and fired up opposed to making him feel he has been dropped. Hope that makes a bit more sense. Edited January 17, 2021 by AvfcRigo82 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) . Edited January 17, 2021 by AvfcRigo82 Double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 7 hours ago, abdulaziz1 said: How would he score while he plays less the 10 minutes? He only started 3-4 games last season. Twice were against Liverpool and Man Utd. Let’s play him against lesser teams and see. Samatta only had one shot last season post lockdown. Davis used to average one or two chances whenever he gets 20-30 mins. Davis started v Sheffield United straight after lockdown and missed a couple. He also came on v Arsenal and missed that one on one that luckily has been forgotten because we stayed up. He's more likely to get a run of starts away from the club so in the short term loaning him out is what he needs and we should've done it already in last 18 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 1 hour ago, AvfcRigo82 said: . ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abdulaziz1 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 36 minutes ago, VillaChris said: Davis started v Sheffield United straight after lockdown and missed a couple. He also came on v Arsenal and missed that one on one that luckily has been forgotten because we stayed up. He's more likely to get a run of starts away from the club so in the short term loaning him out is what he needs and we should've done it already in last 18 months. So you’re telling me that you’d prefer someone who doesn’t appear offensively rather than who’s always threating opponents? I very well remember Davis chances, and those actually which made me liking him and putting faith on him. For me, I’d worry if he isn’t having chances. I remember a stat that Samatta didn’t have more than one shot post lockdown. If we started counting the chances missed by Watkins we won’t stop. Yet that’s exactly the interesting part. For me, it’s not only about finishing, but positioning and the ability to be at the right place. Trez is one of our worst players in terms of shooting the ball, yet he’s our second goal scorer and was a threat just because of his positioning (particularly in set pieces). By the way, I really like Watkins, but it won’t harm to give Davis a chance while trying Watkins as a RW. You’ll see for example people judging Davis against Man City (the best team in the league) which isn’t fair at all. To judge a player you need him in a run of games. Sometimes, one thing can change a lot. El Ghazi goal at Wolves changed his form and confidence. His performance against Burnley was again great. He had bad finished but his tries were encouraging. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudevillaisnice Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 As it stands it’s simple he just isn’t good enough at this level. At the top level chances are few and far between so missing or scuffing so many chances as he does isn’t really an option. I’d imagine he would be ok in the championship if a team takes him on and works with him but even then it’d require a lot of patience. Watkins has more to his game and offers a lot more as it stands, there is no comparison there. I certainly wouldn’t push him out the wing for Davis to start upfront. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante_Lockhart Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 I'd rather Barry be coming off the bench to be honest. Wonder if KD could be made into a decent CM. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyjavfc Posted January 18, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2021 At this point I think we have to say that villa have badly managed KDs career. Injuries have not helped him but he should have been loaned out down the leagues for experience and in search of goals a long time ago now. Due to our lack of options at striker the last few years this has not been possible and it has really hampered his chances and experience. He will never develop without more games...and we are not willing to give him games because...he needs to develop his game. A vicious cycle. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 14 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said: I do agree with what you are saying about Davis, I guess my post was more aimed at the usage of squad depth during these quick turn around of fixtures that we have coming up which I don't think I explained and put across properly. You're right Dave, to get a real idea of what Davis might be capable of he would need a good stretch of 4 or 5 games in a row atleast to see if there is anything salvageable with the player. It indeed would be a risky experiment this season to do that as it stands. That said, when would ever be a good time to try this to see if he is actually going to have a future here and if he is to make it at this level? Is that time now to try this? Definately not imo. However, the main point I was thinking was to start Davis against say Newcastle or Burnley and give him 60 or so minutes of the game and bring Ollie on after then. This is only on the basis of it allowing us to keep Ollie fresh too for the following tough fixtures that follow these ones. I think you have a point, why subject Ollie to bully boy tactics when Keinan is better equipped to deal with that.....Ollie is better suited to play teams who move the ball around as their main offensive. I think it will rely on tactical thinking by Dean.....as it is, he is a different option,albeit one that is unlikely to score himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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