Keinan Davis

[Sulberto21]

6 minutes ago, osmark86 said:

Scott Hogan just needed more time and we should have played to his strengths...

His runs were impeccable.

[birdman]

1 hour ago, wilko154 said:

Hands down the stupidest post I've seen on this forum.

 Indeed. Wonder what has triggered such hate? 

[osmark86]

There's no hate for Davis. But he is just not lethal enough for a striker. You just know he won't score, it's practically a bit of a joke now. The frustrating thing is that the rest of his overall game is actually pretty decent. I just don't think he'll ever make it here now and I've been pretty hopeful these past few seasons.

[Dave-R]

Never hated any player at Villa, just you relise that some are not cut out for this league, are not good enough period or for what role they are in they have something lacking they desperately need and should have. Some around here just like to turn those things into something and label it all as agendas or hate and its daft. Let's face it at this level, realistically, if you have not got the required goods/abilities you drift away if you cant sort it out. 

Davis is a player I like but I still think hed be best playing elsewhere in the team if you want to get something out of him. Maybe best playing behind a striker or trying out in midfield or even as CDM as hes pretty good at running around and putting pressure on and defending. Sometimes you go into a sport and what role you started at may not be the role that is suited for you, that maybe the case for Davis. We have to find a real good use for Davis, just like Luiz was not originally a CDM maybe Davis would have better luck at that role like Luiz has. It's all about how we make people fit, I just do not think Davis fits as a striker and cant continue to not score goals. In my opinion it's worth the try at putting Davis somewhere else, he may even enjoy his new role as well. At the moment Davis is a striker who cant score goals and has been that way for such a long time, its not good really despite the other decent ways he plays. Give the guy abit of hope and try him in some different positions if it doesnt work out at least Smith tried everything and then should part ways. For all we know though trying him as a midfield or cdm, cam or whatever  there could for all we know be a better player under there.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, nick76 said:

I think they probably yes for different reasons.

I don’t mean to be disrespectful but Sheff Utd aren’t a big club so could easily see Wilder getting a top Championship/Newly promoted/Small premiership club.

Dean, if continues, is starting to get a Moyes at Everton type of reputation.  Obviously not exactly the same but a manager that get players playing together, players not jam packed with world class players but still competing against the big teams.  You can see boards and owners wanting to see that at their clubs even if it goes a bit wrong eventually at Villa (Hopefully it won’t).

It seems managers get a couple of chances at top level even if they have a few failures in their CV.

Assuming Dean continues with our improvement, could he be the next England Manager he has the avuncular style to interest them......we have already lost one manager to them in Graham Taylor.

It could be the only place he would go of his own volition, from Villa.

Edited January 5, 2021 by TRO

[nick76]

36 minutes ago, TRO said:

Assuming Dean continues with our improvement, could he be the next England Manager he has the avuncular style to interest them......we have already lost one manager to them in Graham Taylor.

It could be the only place he would go of his own volition, from Villa.

Yeah I agree and I understand in some ways that the England job is the pinnacle for English management jobs but I wouldn’t touch that job if I was a top manager, would you?

[TRO]

31 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Yeah I agree and I understand in some ways that the England job is the pinnacle for English management jobs but I wouldn’t touch that job if I was a top manager, would you?

Not Sure.....I think Managing Villa is a pretty serious job....but the National job is special too.

I guess Dean would have different motivational Issues than say, Graham Taylor.

Me I am more interested in Villa than England.

[wilko154]

3 hours ago, est1874 said:

And this is supposed to be intelligent?

Please tell us why it's "stupid" for someone to not want to see a 22-year-old striker with 4 goals in 71 appearances play for the club again?

Keinan Davis has been given chance after chance to prove himself and has failed to do it at both Championship and Premier League level.

For comparison, Scott Hogan's record was much better, and he was absolutely castigated.

He's played 74 times for the first team in his career, with an average of 38 minutes per game; 47 of those games he's come on from the bench. Essentially he hasn't been given a run a proper run of first team football, mainly due to injury, but also due to being the second or third striker at the club. 

He need's a loan to get some game time and a consistent run in a team where he can prove that he can score goals. His record of 5 goals and 6 assists for Villa is poor, but understandable with his game time.

In my opinion saying that you never want to see a player in a Villa shirt again after a 6 minute cameo appearance, following a 3 minute cameo appearance the week prior is pretty stupid.

 

Scott Hogan played 61 times, with an average of 50 minutes per game; 29 of those games he came on as a sub. His record was 10 goals and 4 assists. His record wasn't much better in terms of minutes on the pitch, or the transfer fee and wages paid.

Edited January 5, 2021 by wilko154

[gwi1890]

It’s weird its not like he miscues or scuff his shot really is it yes a few of his shots are  straight at the keeper but I have seen others take poorer shots and go in but it never happens for Davis !

[AV82]

How many full 90 minute matches has he completed for Villa? Anyone know?

[WakefieldVillan]

3 hours ago, Dave-R said:

Never hated any player at Villa, just you relise that some are not cut out for this league, are not good enough period or for what role they are in they have something lacking they desperately need and should have. Some around here just like to turn those things into something and label it all as agendas or hate and its daft. Let's face it at this level, realistically, if you have not got the required goods/abilities you drift away if you cant sort it out. 

Davis is a player I like but I still think hed be best playing elsewhere in the team if you want to get something out of him. Maybe best playing behind a striker or trying out in midfield or even as CDM as hes pretty good at running around and putting pressure on and defending. Sometimes you go into a sport and what role you started at may not be the role that is suited for you, that maybe the case for Davis. We have to find a real good use for Davis, just like Luiz was not originally a CDM maybe Davis would have better luck at that role like Luiz has. It's all about how we make people fit, I just do not think Davis fits as a striker and cant continue to not score goals. In my opinion it's worth the try at putting Davis somewhere else, he may even enjoy his new role as well. At the moment Davis is a striker who cant score goals and has been that way for such a long time, its not good really despite the other decent ways he plays. Give the guy abit of hope and try him in some different positions if it doesnt work out at least Smith tried everything and then should part ways. For all we know though trying him as a midfield or cdm, cam or whatever  there could for all we know be a better player under there.

Have to disagree with this. Keinan's main strengths are his strength, hold up play and bringing others into player. He's a target man. I really can't see him playing any other position. Possibly in a front two or wide in a front three. Definitely not a midfielder though.

The problem that everyone can see his that he just isn't scoring goals, but like others have alluded to, it's not for the want of trying or the technique as such. I think injuries haven't helped and I think he's been unlucky at times, but bottom line is it's more or less make or break time now for his Villa career. I still think that he has the attributes to make a decent Premier league footballer, but strikers are judged on goals and it's NOW he has to step up. 

There's a very good chance he will start on Friday and I will be willing him, probably more than anyone, to show that he has a future here and as a certain Stevie Bruce would say "that'll shut a few up"!

To be fair, I think 99% of the criticism is fair, it's just a minority that see his stats and nothing else.

A loan deal would probably the perfect outcome for both us and Keinan at this stage but I would only be happy with this if it meant we had strengthened in this area elsewhere (IE not using Traore or a recovering Wesley).

[wilko154]

13 hours ago, AV82 said:

How many full 90 minute matches has he completed for Villa? Anyone know?

7 games

 

4 games in the Championship

2 League Cup games over two seasons - 1 assist

1 FA Cup game - 1 goal

 

[zab6359]

19 hours ago, Zatman said:

Should start Friday

Totally agree with this give the lad some minutes and rest Ollie.

[zab6359]

1 hour ago, wilko154 said:

7 games

 

4 games in the Championship

2 League Cup games over two seasons - 1 assist

1 FA Cup game - 1 goal

 

Hardly enough to just him on IMO

[a-k]

20 hours ago, est1874 said:

And this is supposed to be intelligent?

Please tell us why it's "stupid" for someone to not want to see a 22-year-old striker with 4 goals in 71 appearances play for the club again?

Keinan Davis has been given chance after chance to prove himself and has failed to do it at both Championship and Premier League level.

For comparison, Scott Hogan's record was much better, and he was absolutely castigated.

For what it's worth, the only time he got a consistent, extended run as a key player we had 10 wins, 7 draws, and 3 losses from 20 games (beginning of 2017-18 season). Sure, maybe if he had more than 2 goals in those matches we may have won some extra points, but this was also a 19yo getting his first run in the first-team in the Championship. Don't think he can hold any blame there.

And, where has he been given a chance to prove it at Premier League level? He's played more than a half of PL football only four times: (H) SHU (first game after the restart vs team that was very solid defensively last season), (H) CHE, (H) WOL, (A) LIV. It's not like he's got a long run of outs against the teams with leaky defences. If you mean those cheap minutes off the bench, even the best strikers can struggle to nick a goal when thrown on in the final quarter of the match. I don't think that proves anything.

I think we all agree he's not going to be a prolific goal scorer, but it's not like he is completely useless. Not sure how people can turn a blind eye to all his other attributes. But, if you just want to bring stats into it, I'm sure you can find a list of now-prolific strikers who were much less than that when playing as teenagers in the Championship or coming off the bench as a younger lad in the PL.

It's not our system, but I think he would be best suited playing in a two up-front system beside a poaching #9 type. Not playing with the second striker out on the wing like Watkins does, but a pacy runner for Davis to play the ball into. Would be really interested to see how effective he is in that kind of set-up.

[est1874]

2 hours ago, a-k said:

For what it's worth, the only time he got a consistent, extended run as a key player we had 10 wins, 7 draws, and 3 losses from 20 games (beginning of 2017-18 season). Sure, maybe if he had more than 2 goals in those matches we may have won some extra points, but this was also a 19yo getting his first run in the first-team in the Championship. Don't think he can hold any blame there.

And, where has he been given a chance to prove it at Premier League level? He's played more than a half of PL football only four times: (H) SHU (first game after the restart vs team that was very solid defensively last season), (H) CHE, (H) WOL, (A) LIV. It's not like he's got a long run of outs against the teams with leaky defences. If you mean those cheap minutes off the bench, even the best strikers can struggle to nick a goal when thrown on in the final quarter of the match. I don't think that proves anything.

I think we all agree he's not going to be a prolific goal scorer, but it's not like he is completely useless. Not sure how people can turn a blind eye to all his other attributes. But, if you just want to bring stats into it, I'm sure you can find a list of now-prolific strikers who were much less than that when playing as teenagers in the Championship or coming off the bench as a younger lad in the PL.

It's not our system, but I think he would be best suited playing in a two up-front system beside a poaching #9 type. Not playing with the second striker out on the wing like Watkins does, but a pacy runner for Davis to play the ball into. Would be really interested to see how effective he is in that kind of set-up.

Highly speculative, and Dean Smith is not about to change the whole team's shape and start playing two up front to accommodate a misfiring Keinan Davis.

At the end of the day the apologists can jump on and say this, that and the other about him - he's been unlucky, he hasn't had a long enough run in the side, he's only 22 - but all anyone can judge a player by is his form out on the pitch when he's given a chance to shine; not hypotheticals.

And for what it's worth, by the time he was 22, Gabby Agbonlahor had scored 22 goals and garnered 10 assists for us, and had picked up a PotM award. That was all in the Premier League of course.

Edited January 6, 2021 by est1874

[est1874]

5 hours ago, wilko154 said:

7 games

 

4 games in the Championship

2 League Cup games over two seasons - 1 assist

1 FA Cup game - 1 goal

 

This ignores the fact that he's had a further 18 games where he's featured for 60 minutes or more -- most of which he played over 75 mins.

Bottom line: he has played over 2800 minutes of football for Villa's first team and returned 5 goals and 6 assists.

Is that really good enough for you? It's not even close to the required level for me.

[TRO]

30 minutes ago, est1874 said:

Highly speculative, and Dean Smith is not about to change the whole team's shape and start playing two up front to accommodate a misfiring Keinan Davis.

At the end of the day the apologists can jump on and say this, that and the other about him - he's been unlucky, he hasn't had a long enough run in the side, he's only 22 - but all anyone can judge a player by is his form out on the pitch when he's given a chance to shine; not hypotheticals.

And for what it's worth, by the time he was 22, Gabby Agbonlahor had scored 22 goals and garnered 10 assists for us, and had picked up a PotM award. That was all in the Premier League of course.

If you are saying players have to do what it says on the tin....I agree with you.

bottom line is Strikers or players played in that role, have to score goals and they have to score at a reasonable rate.....but we also have to factor in, players have to work on their game, very few are the finished article in our squad.

You mention Gabby, who despite his overall goal record had too many barren spells without scoring.....really good goal scorers score regularly.....its been an issue for us for some time, we need a goal every 2-3 games man, to be comfortable...and its no good aggregating them out for a credible result either, it just distorts the picture.

Young players, I have more tolerance with, but I do agree, we can't wait forever.

 

[wilko154]

44 minutes ago, est1874 said:

This ignores the fact that he's had a further 18 games where he's featured for 60 minutes or more -- most of which he played over 75 mins.

Bottom line: he has played over 2800 minutes of football for Villa's first team and returned 5 goals and 6 assists.

Is that really good enough for you? It's not even close to the required level for me.

The question I answered was how many games has he played 90 minutes in. The answer to that was 7.

I explained earlier how he's not had a consistent run in the team, I can't be bothered to repeat myself.

[a-k]

18 hours ago, est1874 said:

Highly speculative, and Dean Smith is not about to change the whole team's shape and start playing two up front to accommodate a misfiring Keinan Davis.

At the end of the day the apologists can jump on and say this, that and the other about him - he's been unlucky, he hasn't had a long enough run in the side, he's only 22 - but all anyone can judge a player by is his form out on the pitch when he's given a chance to shine; not hypotheticals.

And for what it's worth, by the time he was 22, Gabby Agbonlahor had scored 22 goals and garnered 10 assists for us, and had picked up a PotM award. That was all in the Premier League of course.

You are purposely taking me out of context when I clearly said "it is not our system" and with a "pacy runner" that is a "poaching #9" .I did not mean that we should change the shape to accommodate Davis, I was just saying IMO that's how I see him being most effective, whether for us or others.