Chop chop! Lets all gawp at Newcastle (again)

[Keyblade]

1 minute ago, momo said:

Benitez wanted to wait before signing the contract. When he saw what kind of team he was getting, he ran all the way to china. It is 100% certain that your boy didn't want Joelinton. But you're just want to make a point about Bruce being a shit manager, that you don't want to accept that he did better with a team than Benitez thought he himself would do. Or standing still, or whatever. It's like you think Benitez would magically make this exact team play like Barcelona 2012, while the truth is they probably would be standing still regardless of which of the two manages them.

Do you have any quotes re: Benitez & Joelinton.

[TrentVilla]

1 minute ago, momo said:

Benitez wanted to wait before signing the contract. When he saw what kind of team he was getting, he ran all the way to china. It is 100% certain that your boy didn't want Joelinton. But you're just want to make a point about Bruce being a shit manager, that you don't want to accept that he did better with a team than Benitez thought he himself would do. Or standing still, or whatever. It's like you think Benitez would magically make this exact team play like Barcelona 2012, while the truth is they probably would be standing still regardless of which of the two manages them.

He didn't do better. How many sodding times.

He did the same despite spending ten times what Rafa spent. The entire bloody point of this entire debate was about the football the two played with you unable to see the difference between the two and somehow trying to claim Bruce had done a better job which simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny and isn't at all reflected in how the two are viewed by those who watch Newcastle every week.

At no point has anyone least of all me suggested Benitez would have this team playing like Barcelona, that is just rather daft strawman argument (look it up).

What I think is fairly certain is that if Rafa had remained and spent the money Bruce has spent then they would have done more than stand still from a points perspective and go backwards in terms of how the team played.

What I think is that Rafa plays dull football but that tactically he is on different planet to Bruce as is demonstrated by their careers, that he is a better judge of player and better at identifying and developing talent than Bruce. That had Rafa remained they would be doing significantly better than they are now. If you think otherwise, fine, but I think you are deluded if you do.

[Zatman]

I dont understand how its a criticism of Benitez for leaving IF the board gave him a 40 million dud. If anything it just shows what a good judge of a player he is and how gutless Bruce is for accepting such a player

[momo]

2 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

He didn't do better. How many sodding times.

He did the same despite spending ten times what Rafa spent. The entire bloody point of this entire debate was about the football the two played with you unable to see the difference between the two and somehow trying to claim Bruce had done a better job which simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny and isn't at all reflected in how the two are viewed by those who watch Newcastle every week.

At no point has anyone least of all me suggested Benitez would have this team playing like Barcelona, that is just rather daft strawman argument (look it up).

What I think is fairly certain is that if Rafa had remained and spent the money Bruce has spent then they would have done more than stand still from a points perspective and go backwards in terms of how the team played.

What I think is that Rafa plays dull football but that tactically he is on different planet to Bruce as is demonstrated by their careers, that he is a better judge of player and better at identifying and developing talent than Bruce. That had Rafa remained they would be doing significantly better than they are now. If you think otherwise, fine, but I think you are deluded if you do.

Benitez got away with dull and boring football, because he had won some stuff with good players before. Benitez himself was hated by fans at Chelsea and Inter Milan because of his defensive playing style. Bruce is not a popular manager here, and that's fine. But when discussing, don't think your snides make your inaccurate points any truer.

Btw, at which club did Benitez have full control, and which players did Benitez himself choose at Newcastle, Valencia, Chelsea, Inter? Didn't Liverpool have a transfer committee? So he just decided that his reason for leaving Newcastle, was because he wanted more control than he ever had in any club in his entire managerial career? Sure...

[momo]

5 minutes ago, Zatman said:

I dont understand how its a criticism of Benitez for leaving IF the board gave him a 40 million dud. If anything it just shows what a good judge of a player he is and how gutless Bruce is for accepting such a player

And Bruce got the same point tally as Benitez the year before with that dud. That's the point.

[TrentVilla]

6 minutes ago, momo said:

Benitez got away with dull and boring football, because he had won some stuff with good players before. Benitez himself was hated by fans at Chelsea and Inter Milan because of his defensive playing style. Bruce is not a popular manager here, and that's fine. But when discussing, don't think your snides make your inaccurate points any truer.

Btw, at which club did Benitez have full control, and which players did Benitez himself choose at Newcastle, Valencia, Chelsea, Inter? Didn't Liverpool have a transfer committee? So he just decided that his reason for leaving Newcastle, was because he wanted more control than he ever had in any club in his entire managerial career? Sure...

And loved by Valencia and Liverpool fans but that like how he was viewed by Chelsea or Milan fans is utterly irrelevant. 

I've said his football was dull several times. He got away with it though because time and time again he built successful sides, well drilled and tactically spot on sides that he sent out to play exacting tactical game plans. Pretty much the direct bloody opposite to Bruce. You just can't grasp this point no matter how frequently it is made so I'm done.

I can't be arsed entertaining this when you just make stuff up, you've no idea what level of control he had in each of his jobs, you are just making stuff up as frequently as your point shifts.

 

[Keyblade]

No point debating specifics. Bruce isn't even in the same stratosphere of caliber of manager as Benitez. 

[momo]

1 hour ago, TrentVilla said:

And loved by Valencia and Liverpool fans but that like how he was viewed by Chelsea or Milan fans is utterly irrelevant. 

I've said his football was dull several times. He got away with it though because time and time again he built successful sides, well drilled and tactically spot on sides that he sent out to play exacting tactical game plans. Pretty much the direct bloody opposite to Bruce. You just can't grasp this point no matter how frequently it is made so I'm done.

I can't be arsed entertaining this when you just make stuff up, you've no idea what level of control he had in each of his jobs, you are just making stuff up as frequently as your point shifts.

 

 

Quote

The now infamous ‘Lee Charnley’ programme notes – 11 August 2019:

“We were delighted to secure a number of targets that we have had on our radar for a period of time.

“We had several outstanding scouting reports about Joelinton and he is a player who we strived for.

“We worked so hard to get a deal agreed for him earlier this year (as far back as February) to take effect from 1 July.

“Everything was in place, with all contracts and paperwork agreed, and it was very disappointing and surprising that we could not conclude it at that time.

“We felt it was a transfer that was in the best interests of the football club.

“However, we needed Rafa’s approval to proceed and, despite our best efforts, this is something he would not give.

“Following Steve Bruce’s arrival, we discussed Joelinton and our scouting reports at length.

“With Steve completely on board, we were delighted to secure him. He and Hoffenheim were very patient and we are grateful to them for that.”

“Steve’s views were very much in line with our own in terms of what the team needed to improve.”

So, isn't this in line with what I said? You made me google. So who's making stuff up? It's you. Now, go to bed.

[momo]

21 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

No point debating specifics. Bruce isn't even in the same stratosphere of caliber of manager as Benitez. 

I never said anything about their careers. I just stated that Bruce has done a better job with Newcastle than Benitez. My opinion. If you disagree, fine by me. But you guys need to stop with the lying just to win a debate of opinions. This isn't BLM. This is just football. Yet respect is something you clearly lack.

[penguin]

[Guest av1]

34 minutes ago, momo said:

I never said anything about their careers. I just stated that Bruce has done a better job with Newcastle than Benitez. My opinion. 

Who's opinion to believe?

1 solitary voice on a Villa forum or 60 thousand Geordies that watch ever game? Mmmm. 

[TrentVilla]

35 minutes ago, momo said:

I never said anything about their careers. I just stated that Bruce has done a better job with Newcastle than Benitez. My opinion. If you disagree, fine by me. But you guys need to stop with the lying just to win a debate of opinions. This isn't BLM. This is just football. Yet respect is something you clearly lack.

He hasn’t though, that’s factual regardless of your opinion. Nobody is lying and I’ve literally no idea the relevance of BLM to this.

You perhaps should look at you own posts on the point re respect. 

[HanoiVillan]

I last loaded this thread a day ago and somehow there's *four* unread pages

Is Bruce a better manager than Rafa? No, of course not. Were Newcastle both defensive and frequently extremely boring to watch under Rafa? Definitely yes. Is Bruce doing a bad job? Well, 'yes' if you want good football, 'no' if you don't want to be relegated.

At the end of the day, Bruce has done a somewhat worse job than Benitez because, while the team finished in the same place in the league, the fans are unhappier now so he is performing worse at his real job, which is 'Mike Ashley's human shield'. They presumably like him less both because of who he is in comparison to who Rafa was, in terms of their success with the club and their CV's, and also because Bruce has them playing even more boring football. But to be clear, they were still both defensive and boring under Benitez.

[TheStagMan]

Well, with Bruce, you know what you are getting: turgid, dull, tactic-less football that will make you lose your love of the game, but he will keep you up (maybe) if you are in the prem, or get you promoted if you are in the Championship, guaranteed.... oh wait!

Oh, and he will also pretty much bankrupt your club longer term.

How this charlatan still gets managerial jobs is baffling, how he still gets unwavering support from some is truely unbelievable.

[bobzy]

Bruce is doing a decent job at Newcastle IMO - but the football is exactly as predictable as you knew it would be.  If results start to properly slip away, he'll be in serious trouble as there's just absolutely zero goodwill (unlike with Benitez as he got them promoted).

[rodders0223]

[TrentVilla]

Bruce has spent a fortune, ten times what Rafa spent and not improved them at all. The football is dire and the fans can’t stand him but loved Rafa because they could see the difference in how the team played and the tactics used. That’s simply fact.

[YouUnastanFren]

Watching them last season the overwhelming impression I got was that Newcastle were very lucky to even avoid relegation, let alone finish mid table. Seemed like teams were hitting the woodwork and missing big chances against them most weeks. Their keeper made some unbelievable saves as well.

The stats seem to back that up too. They were bottom of the xPTS table with 31.92, even below Norwich. They overperformed their expected total by a larger percentage than any team I can remember.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them fall back into the fight this season

Edited December 29, 2020 by YouUnastanFren

[Davkaus]

That probably ought to be enough evidence to suggest that "xG" is bollocks. It had Newcastle bottom, and Liverpool's 18 point advantage was overturned to have them come second. 12th place Everton "should" have finished several positions above 6th place Tottenham. It's nonsense. 

You highlight one of the key problems with it. They have a good goalkeeper. Counts for nothing in the "xG" game. It assumes all strikers and goalkeepers perform at the average level. It's a bullshit stat. 

 

[Rob182]

It’s very easy for Bruce supporters to say that Bruce is doing a better job simply because he has more points than Benitez had at this point in the season, but that only paints about 1/10th of the picture.

Any team under Bruce will go backwards as time goes on. Overly reliant on big money signings and individual moments of brilliance, while the rest of your players get stuck into non-tactics for as long as he’s in charge. Young players generally suffer in their development, unless they’re one of the best ones, in which case they’ll have weight on their shoulders to produce individual moments to change games. 
 

Each year that goes by is another year of wasted money, terrible football, lack of development and a year closer to his older, trusted players declining and needing replacing.