Dodgyknees Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, avfcDJ said: I don’t think Trent bullies anybody, he just picks out arguments that make no sense. @momo, you can use the emoji Laugh about it all you like, Trent and I had a disagreement about Lerner way back, it wasn’t bullying and he turned out right. Funny that. And he is 100% right about Bruce. Edited December 30, 2020 by avfcDJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 (edited) 56 minutes ago, avfcDJ said: @momo, you can use the emoji Laugh about it all you like, Trent and I had a disagreement about Lerner way back, it wasn’t bullying and he turned out right. Funny that. And he is 100% right about Bruce. I'm not entirely sure what the discussion is about anymore, but Trent has stated that he thinks Benitez left because he didn't have control over transfers, yet thinks Bruce should be doing so much better because he's been heavily backed. I'd assume the same barriers are in place, but it works negatively for one manager and positively for another, which shows bias IMO. What's evident, is that Newcastle are roughly the same team under Bruce as they were under Benitez - albeit less enjoyable to watch. Benitez being a more successful manager both generally and with Newcastle has given him more goodwill with their fans, whereas the sentiment here is naturally anti-Bruce. Edited December 30, 2020 by bobzy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 "Shut some people up" He said it again 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 9 minutes ago, bobzy said: I'm not entirely sure what the discussion is about anymore, but Trent has stated that he thinks Benitez left because he didn't have control over transfers, yet thinks Bruce should be doing so much better because he's been heavily backed. I'd assume the same barriers are in place, but it works negatively for one manager and positively for another, which shows bias IMO. What's evident, is that Newcastle are roughly the same team under Bruce as they were under Benitez - albeit less enjoyable to watch. Benitez being a more successful manager both generally and with Newcastle has given him more goodwill with their fans, whereas the sentiment here is naturally anti-Bruce. As Newcastle fans will testify, they have been very lucky. Under Benitez they went out and won games and competed. Luck doesn’t last forever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted December 30, 2020 Moderator Share Posted December 30, 2020 36 minutes ago, bobzy said: I'm not entirely sure what the discussion is about anymore, but Trent has stated that he thinks Benitez left because he didn't have control over transfers, yet thinks Bruce should be doing so much better because he's been heavily backed. I'd assume the same barriers are in place, but it works negatively for one manager and positively for another, which shows bias IMO. What's evident, is that Newcastle are roughly the same team under Bruce as they were under Benitez - albeit less enjoyable to watch. Benitez being a more successful manager both generally and with Newcastle has given him more goodwill with their fans, whereas the sentiment here is naturally anti-Bruce. No bias at all. Rafa had next to no investment, Bruce has had over £100m. The notion that their performance in the role is in any way similar is ridiculous in my view. The points and league positions of the two are similar which means the investment during Bruce’s era has made no improvement to performance and I’d that is entirely down to Bruce, had Rafa had that money I think he would have performed better even with exactly the same players. History is simply repeating itself at Newcastle, it’s no different to here or Sunderland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted December 30, 2020 Moderator Share Posted December 30, 2020 30 minutes ago, avfcDJ said: As Newcastle fans will testify, they have been very lucky. Under Benitez they went out and won games and competed. Luck doesn’t last forever. We saw the same when he was with us, we had spells of winning games but not playing well. It didn’t last it never does. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 Just now, TrentVilla said: No bias at all. Rafa had next to no investment, Bruce has had over £100m. The notion that their performance in the role is in any way similar is ridiculous in my view. The points and league positions of the two are similar which means the investment during Bruce’s era has made no improvement to performance and I’d that is entirely down to Bruce, had Rafa had that money I think he would have performed better even with exactly the same players. History is simply repeating itself at Newcastle, it’s no different to here or Sunderland. Rafa had £40m investment first season in the Prem, season after (Bruce) it was £65m. They both finished 13th in those seasons, very similar levels of investment, very similar styles of playing football. Should the team be kicking on now? Maybe. They've only really bought two players (Wilson and Lewis) with Hendrick and Fraser picked up on free transfers. Then again, they are players from teams who got relegated or perennially struggle in the league. Is that the sort of investment that sees Newcastle be anything other than a mid to lower Premier League team? Not really, in my view. I think we're all agreed on Bruce's teams not being entertaining to watch at all. He isn't a very good manager. But let's not overly laud Benitez when he's, essentially, done exactly the same job at Newcastle in the Premier League. As I said earlier in the thread, Bruce lacks any goodwill that Benitez has earned so as soon as results go properly south, he'll be off - and I expect they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 Bruce relies on individual brilliance. Benitez relies on his system. That is the difference and the reason why one has won major trophies and the other haven't. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 23 minutes ago, bobzy said: Rafa had £40m investment first season in the Prem, season after (Bruce) it was £65m. They both finished 13th in those seasons, very similar levels of investment, very similar styles of playing football. Should the team be kicking on now? Maybe. They've only really bought two players (Wilson and Lewis) with Hendrick and Fraser picked up on free transfers. Then again, they are players from teams who got relegated or perennially struggle in the league. Is that the sort of investment that sees Newcastle be anything other than a mid to lower Premier League team? Not really, in my view. I think we're all agreed on Bruce's teams not being entertaining to watch at all. He isn't a very good manager. But let's not overly laud Benitez when he's, essentially, done exactly the same job at Newcastle in the Premier League. As I said earlier in the thread, Bruce lacks any goodwill that Benitez has earned so as soon as results go properly south, he'll be off - and I expect they will. That's where people will disagree, benetiz wasn't this bad 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 9 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Bruce relies on individual brilliance. Benitez relies on his system. That is the difference and the reason why one has won major trophies and the other haven't. Agree But at the same time, defending Bruce here Benetiz has declined, he's not the same guy that won all those things, Newcastle fans seriously overrated him and thought he was in the top 5 managers in the league, he wasn't, so the position of "we've gone from one of the best managers in the league to Bruce" is slightly unfair 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest av1 Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 38 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: History is simply repeating itself at Newcastle, it’s no different to here or Sunderland. And that's the crux of it isn't it. Rafa has been very very successful at big clubs and has largely been respected/loved by the fans of clubs he has managed (Chelsea aside) Bruce has been shit almost everywhere and most fans hate him especially when he slags them off for daring to question his style of play. This isn't even a debate really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 36 minutes ago, villa4europe said: That's where people will disagree, benetiz wasn't this bad But the styles of play are very similar. Benitez was also criticised for negative, defensive football during his reign. It was one of the reasons Newcastle fans were against Bruce's appointment from the start - there was no change in plan as such. We're either being too anti-Bruce or just forgetting what Newcastle were like under Benitez. They've been a pretty awful, defensively-minded side for 3 and a half seasons in the Premier League now and have been positioned mid table each time - irrespective of manager. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted December 30, 2020 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 hour ago, TrentVilla said: History is simply repeating itself at Newcastle, it’s no different to here or Sunderland. Indeed. I think you could argue that all of his jobs demonstrate his strengths and weaknesses. What he’s good at is organising a team to be solid, starting from the back. Add in (if players are there already) one or two more flair players and you have a recipe for a relatively small club to meet or exceed expectations. Palace, Blues, Hull, Wigan...solid league positions, some cup runs. The difficulty is with “bigger” clubs. Fans and owners want more ( usually) than scrapping around while playing stolid football. If you’re Championship level, then there’s the hope that because of the level and quality of much of the opposition, his organisation and team spirit will be enough, but that only works where there aren’t clubs playing more expansive football, with managers able to overcome the predictable, “keep it tight” style. As soon as you talk Premier league, where nowadays almost all clubs do have tactically astute managers, where analysis is forensic, the “solid” approach is not enough to do anything other than hope to survive. And it’s dull. Dull to watch and dull to know that there’s no hope of better than lower mid table. Dull that you will be outclassed by more attractive sides playing adventurous football. He’s a bad fit for any “Big” club in anything other than the short term. He’s not a bad manager, he can spot a player, create team spirit, is liked by players and organises well. It’s just that that is not enough any more, above the Championship’s mid ranking clubs. As for Benitez, his record is far better and when given money and at Big clubs he’s won stuff and produced quality sides. He also adapted to harsher circumstances at Newcastle. Storming the Championship and “doing a Bruce” to keep them up with relatively scant resources. Personally, neither are my cup of tea. I never wanted Bruce at Villa, and I wouldn’t want Benitez either. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 hour ago, blandy said: As for Benitez, his record is far better and when given money and at Big clubs he’s won stuff and produced quality sides. He also adapted to harsher circumstances at Newcastle. Storming the Championship and “doing a Bruce” to keep them up with relatively scant resources. We need to stop trying to re-write this. Plenty was spent in the Premier League whilst Benitez was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 They've spent money most seasons. Guess the big difference is the amount they have sold players for during Rafa's reign compared to under Bruce. About £36m under the last 2 seasons combined compared to £173m while Rafa was there. Obviously this is players that neither Rafa nor Bruce got use on the pitch. But again, comparing the two is just hysterical. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboyangel Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 Steve Bruce has several go to sound bites - amongst his favourites are ‘mass hysteria’ ’that’ll hopefully shut them up’ ’large kebab, hold the salad’ Fwiw - I don’t think the ownership circumstances at Newcastle have helped either Bruce or Benitez but SB implements such negativity amongst the team and fan base he exacerbates the situation. Regardless of the running of the club - the players they have could be utilised in a more attacking/entertaining way but that is not Bruce by any means - he is too scared to lose matches instead of trying to win them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 (edited) How has this thread managed a five page discussion on whether Steve Bruce is as good a manager as Rafa Benitez? These Tier 4 restrictions have sent everyone crazy... Edited December 30, 2020 by LondonLax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 30, 2020 Moderator Share Posted December 30, 2020 6 hours ago, bobzy said: We need to stop trying to re-write this. Plenty was spent in the Premier League whilst Benitez was there. Net spend £ -11 million. I’m no fan of his, but as with Villa under late era Randy Lerner, trying to improve quality while having to more than balance the books is a millstone. While rival clubs were spending big, he was shopping for 5 or sometimes 10 million players, not able to go for genuine, expensive quality players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoelVilla Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 Good performance here actually. Hope they win. Makes our title challenge easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, blandy said: Net spend £ -11 million. I’m no fan of his, but as with Villa under late era Randy Lerner, trying to improve quality while having to more than balance the books is a millstone. While rival clubs were spending big, he was shopping for 5 or sometimes 10 million players, not able to go for genuine, expensive quality players. So was/is Bruce though. The narrative of “Rafa had nothing, Steve has had loads” is simply incorrect. I wouldn’t say that Klopp has had next to nothing to spend, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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