magnkarl Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 1 hour ago, PompeyVillan said: Can you point me towards some evidence of Momentum being violent. Via PM is fine. Linky: Quote The leftwing grassroots organisation Momentum has dropped a commitment to nonviolence from its ethical code following interventions by some of its committee members. An interim code of ethics for the group, which supports the re-election of Jeremy Corbyn, had included a pledge to support peaceful political change. But the word “nonviolent” was dropped from the code after several members argued that Momentum members should have the right to defend themselves if attacked by police or fascists. Another article. Quote Angela Eagle, the Labour MP and former shadow cabinet member who announced this week that she will challenge Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, has had a brick thrown through the window of her constituency office. One window pane of her Wallasey office was smashed on the evening, or the early morning after, her leadership launch. Some of her staff members have been threatened, and she also had to change the location of an event she was due to hold today, because the staff at the venue also received abuse. It's pretty clear that most of these leftist/anarchist groups are not above being violent, and to me that is not only stupid but totally counter productive. Anyone on the alt-right can keep using the argument that Antifa and anyone protesting against them are threatening, being violent and hurting people. There's a whole myriad of videos of antifa members attacking public property, journalists, cars, stores and so on. By all means. I think nazism and fascism is the worst thing in the world. My grandfather was in a concentration camp for 3 years. However I don't think the answer is to create violence and rioting, it'll just drive even more moderate right leaning people into the arms of the alt-right because they get treated like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted August 16, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) ^^Brilliant. That's me convinced I know I'm going to regret engaging here but the world is not a binary place. Deciding against non-violence does not automatically mean engaging in violence. And a brick through a window thrown by some un-named assailant. Incontrovertible evidence of the Momentum being violent thugs, if ever I saw it. Edited August 16, 2017 by choffer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 12 minutes ago, choffer said: ^^Brilliant. That's me convinced I know I'm going to regret engaging here but the world is not a binary place. Deciding against non-violence does not automatically mean engaging in violence. And a brick through a window thrown by some un-named assailant. Incontrovertible evidence of the Momentum being violent thugs, if ever I saw it. Yeah, I'm sure it was conservative youth really. That's why Jeremy Corbyn felt the need to condemn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 16 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Linky: Another article. Dropping a commitment to non-violence because of: Quote argued that Momentum members should have the right to defend themselves if attacked by police or fascists. does not mean Momentum are violent. Some random person lobbing a brick through a window does not make Momentum violent. Really illustrates your clutching at straws here when these are the best you can come up with to show that Momentum are violent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 18 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Linky: Another article. It's pretty clear that most of these leftist/anarchist groups are not above being violent, and to me that is not only stupid but totally counter productive. Anyone on the alt-right can keep using the argument that Antifa and anyone protesting against them are threatening, being violent and hurting people. There's a whole myriad of videos of antifa members attacking public property, journalists, cars, stores and so on. By all means. I think nazism and fascism is the worst thing in the world. My grandfather was in a concentration camp for 3 years. However I don't think the answer is to create violence and rioting, it'll just drive even more moderate right leaning people into the arms of the alt-right because they get treated like this. Ok thanks for the reply. I would say that evidence doesn't at all prove that Momentum are a violent organisation but this thread isn't about Momentum, so I'll leave it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 16, 2017 Moderator Share Posted August 16, 2017 32 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Yeah, I'm sure it was conservative youth really. That's why Jeremy Corbyn felt the need to condemn it. It could easily have been some pissed up vandal and had absolutely nothing to do with politics Angela Eagle liked to portray it as some lefty because it suited her to be the victim at the time Could have been absolutely any one Anyway back to the circus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Keyblade Posted August 16, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 16, 2017 The Nazis were armed to the teeth with assault rifles and killed someone, as well as injured over 20 people including a black man beat within an inch of his life by a modern day lynch mob. B-but antifa broke some windows one time! B-but the alt-left are violent too! B-but BLM...yeah BLM! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 I'll be honest and say I don't really get what ANTIFA is seems to be yet another thing that Americans have heard about, absolutely bastardised and follow more fervently than any football nut job in this country could ever dream of following their team seems such an Americanism to support things with a loyalty that verges on insanity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 So armed militias were marching alongside Neo Nazis and the KKK? And the President goes out of his way to publicly defend them. And yet unnamed Mexicans are bad hombres, bad dudes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 16, 2017 Moderator Share Posted August 16, 2017 1 minute ago, villa4europe said: I'll be honest and say I don't really get what ANTIFA is seems to be yet another thing that Americans have heard about, absolutely bastardised and follow more fervently than any football nut job in this country could ever dream of following their team seems such an Americanism to support things with a loyalty that verges on insanity Anti Fascist Action - similar exist here in the UK. Very good at mobilising up here in Liverpool. They've successfully stopped a good number a far right demo's here. Including this one where the group National Action ended up barricaded in the Left Luggage Office of Lime St Station 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 16, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted August 16, 2017 1 minute ago, PompeyVillan said: So armed militias were marching alongside Neo Nazis and the KKK? And the President goes out of his way to publicly defend them. And yet unnamed Mexicans are bad hombres, bad dudes. The Mexicans aren't voting for him. But the people that do hate them some Mexicans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LakotaDakota Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 12 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said: So armed militias were marching alongside Neo Nazis and the KKK? And the President goes out of his way to publicly defend them. And yet unnamed Mexicans are bad hombres, bad dudes. There are plenty of armed militias on the streets in the states, some white, some black. The sigt of a group of 20 or so people walking round in full military gear armed with some heavy firepower like it is the most normal thing in the world really is quite staggering. There was a recent ross kemp extreme world episode where he was in dallas looking at the prospect of a race war. As part of this he attended a "white lives matter" demo and you can see there that there were plenty of armed groups on both sides. There was some shouting, throwing and general jostling from both sides but considering there were large groups of incredibly heavily armed masked people on both sides this was nothing compared to what could have happened. Well worth a watch and is on catchup if have virgin/sky https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jul/10/ross-kemp-extreme-world-review-tv-tough-guy-tackles-racial-inequality Then Ross goes out of town, to a secret training camp where a black militia group is practising shooting, preparing themselves, says Ross, for “a war they believe is coming”. And he crosses those battle lines, gets embedded with White Lives Matter (yes, really), who describe themselves as a civil rights group and are described by a lot of other people as a white race-hate organisation. They’re having their own demonstration, in Austin, Texas, demanding civil rights for whites. And they’re certainly exercising their second amendment right, packing some serious weaponry. “They have little trust in the mainstream media, but they have agreed to allow me to come along,” says Ross, who, don’t forget, is working for the little-known, fringe organisation Sky. The White Lives Matter protest is met by a load of counter-demonstrators, including a Marxist revolutionary group called the Red Guard, who are also armed to the eyeballs (not that you can see their eyeballs, they’re wearing red masks). So there are two sides, men armed with assault rifles, staring each other out, hating everything about each other. You wouldn’t think it would take much for it all to kick off. Here in Austin today, it really does look like the verge of warfare. Certainly it’s the ugliest, most disheartening thing I have seen on television this weekend. Thank God, then for even the tiniest glimmer of humour. They, the counter-protesters, (most of whom didn’t watch EastEnders in the 1990s, I’m guessing) think Ross is one of them, a White Lives Matter protester! Because he’s with them. And because of his hairstyle. Ha! Boo, white scum, Nazi go home, Ross Kemp go home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Normal people have to go to find a way of communicating with the idiots on both sides. In America, 'The left' have got to find a way to shift the debate. They have got to stop pointing fingers and just keep pulling apart the arguments and proposing better solutions. There's a reason peope shifted towards Trump and pay attention to spacca's like Alex Jones, Paul Joseph Twatson and Ann C***er. The opposition needs to listen, educate and act, otherwise there's no good end to this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 The scorpion and the frog. In the US, it is perfectly legal to be racist and to tell the world about it. Ethics and morals vs the law. In the US, it is perfectly legal to be armed to the teeth and in some cases walk around in public like this. Ethics and morals vs the law. But here is an interesting thing. It is not legal to protest or march wherever you please, e.g., the democratic and freedom loving demonstration zones miles away from any presidential visit, G20 meeting etc. Why is it that no-one appears to be concerned with (a) why the racists were allowed to march where ever they damn well pleased, and they didn't do this in secret either (compare this to policing of occupy/bml related marches all across America in the past 7 years), and (b) given their nature, it was bloody obvious that counter protests would occur (and these were not organized in secret either). So, whom in the police and the mayor/governor office mucked up the policing of this event? Specific individuals made incredibly poor decisions and should face a criminal enquiry given the loss of life and property that resulted. There's a reason why we have away zones and related rules in football grounds. Instead of pointing out the bloody obvious, how about some questions as to what the relevant authorities were doing, given that it is their job and legal responsibility to ensure a nice stable society aka law & order. Pushing this all on Trump is all well and good but as eluded to in the comment above regarding the Ross Kemp show, These situations are ready and waiting all across the US and state level political institutions are dominated by all sorts of horribly biased actors and ideologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Trump just disbanded his Economic/manufacturing council thing. You can't jump ship if there's no ship. Solid gold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LakotaDakota Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) He also managed to wipe nearly $6 billion (about 1.2%) off amazons stock market value in 2 hours today by tweeting “Amazon is doing great damage to tax paying retailers. Towns, cities and states throughout the US are being hurt - many jobs being lost!” The real news & issues in the states are just getting ignored due to all the shouting at/about Trump, This weekend another 9 people were shot dead and 30+ were wounded in an ordinary average weekend in Chicago, last weekend it was 5 dead and 22 wounded. In Chicago alone this year there have been at least 2300 people shot in the city, 400 fatally. The population of Chicago is about twice that of Birmingham for comparison Edited August 16, 2017 by LakotaDakota 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 11 minutes ago, LakotaDakota said: This weekend another 9 people were shot dead and 30+ were wounded in an ordinary average weekend in Chicago, last weekend it was 5 dead and 22 wounded. In Chicago alone this year there have been at least 2300 people shot in the city, 400 fatally. The population of Chicago is about twice that of Birmingham for comparison About 2 weekends ago there were 3 fatal stabbing in brum and it sparked shock and outrage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 51 minutes ago, LakotaDakota said: He also managed to wipe nearly $6 billion (about 1.2%) off amazons stock market value in 2 hours today by tweeting “Amazon is doing great damage to tax paying retailers. Towns, cities and states throughout the US are being hurt - many jobs being lost!” The real news & issues in the states are just getting ignored due to all the shouting at/about Trump, This weekend another 9 people were shot dead and 30+ were wounded in an ordinary average weekend in Chicago, last weekend it was 5 dead and 22 wounded. In Chicago alone this year there have been at least 2300 people shot in the city, 400 fatally. The population of Chicago is about twice that of Birmingham for comparison To be fair to Trump, this is one of the big reasons he won the election. Amazon etc. represent a massive change in how society works in the same way as off-shoring decimated US manufacturing. In the short run these mega-retailers are a boon but give it 10 yrs after all the other small businesses go bust and lets see how happy a place society is when everyone works a minimum wage or zero hour/uber type "contract" job. Also, when a company that has never posted a profit with a P/E ratio of stupid drops in value, I'm personally not sure how to process that. I guess Janet will hold on raising rates. He also hammered on and on about the chaos in Chicago. On both of these issues the other side, well and his own side (they were all against him), were pretty much mute. Whatever one says about the guy, he knows at least how some of the wind blows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dAVe80 Posted August 16, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 16, 2017 I consider myself an anti fascist, and I'm left wing, and I'm an ex member of Momentum nationally (but still a member locally), and I've been to anti EDL / Nazi demonstrations. I've not encountered one violent incident, instigated by anyone in the circles I've kept. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 52 minutes ago, LakotaDakota said: The real news & issues in the states are just getting ignored due to all the shouting at/about Trump, This weekend another 9 people were shot dead and 30+ were wounded in an ordinary average weekend in Chicago, last weekend it was 5 dead and 22 wounded. In Chicago alone this year there have been at least 2300 people shot in the city, 400 fatally. The population of Chicago is about twice that of Birmingham for comparison Some interesting 2016 stats here if anyone is interested .. 2015 and 2017 also available Final 2016 Totals Shot & Killed: 720 Shot & Wounded: 3659 Total Shot: 4379 Total Homicides: 806 sone frightening stats all in all on that page as a side it does appear that more people are dying of headshots in 2017 than 2106 so it suggests Americans are becoming better shots .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts