StefanAVFC Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Hardly personal to point out your posts consist of the same talking points as Trump in his tweets above. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, mjmooney said: Buffalo Bill? He was a showbiz impresario (after helping wipe out the bison)! To be fair he did have quite a decorated military service before he got involved with the circus (albeit in the against the native Americans so can offend modern political sensitivities). Anyway I think mount Rushmore was originally a really large advertising billboard and people like Buffalo Bill were just the big local celebrities that they came up with at the start. It's really just the first Hello magazine cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) I think the loudest voice in whether a hitler statue exists comes from the jewish community. I rather suspect they would say heil no. likewise the confederacy was at a time that saw an entire people subjugated. If those people resent it's presence, their voice ought to carry far more weight than racists. And again, don't erase history, just don't have a divisive monument to it. Have a little shed with displays and discussions about pre-civil war america. Edited August 17, 2017 by Rodders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted August 17, 2017 Moderator Share Posted August 17, 2017 10 minutes ago, magnkarl said: It's an issue alright. I for one think that leaving statues up of people like Lee should serve as a reminder that slavery was horrible. Tearing them down only leads to idolism. If we're tearing down slave related statues in the US we also need to look at a lot of statues in London, Bristol, Manchester, Dublin and all the ports that shipped said slaves to America. In Manchester, whilst yes it was a city that facilitated the slave trade, the only statue pertaining to someone who touched that "industry" is Abraham Lincoln who, from memory, wasn't that into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, Chindie said: Leaving them up leads to idolism and respect. It's basically the point. It isn't about forgetting history. A statue pulled down doesn't erase Lee from the conscious. What it does it removes any shred of tacit or implicit respect for what the statue represents. In Lee's case, that statue, for a great many people, is an honour to a time that belongs long dead but isn't. It shouldn't stand. It could work. However victors always write history. In fact a lot of the union troops in that war went back and enforced even worse racist views than Lee. I think the statue was an ugly reminder of a time worth learning from. If we wipe all statues from that age out of view then the people who don't have an interest in history will never know who Lee was and what he stood for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post StefanAVFC Posted August 17, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, magnkarl said: If we wipe all statues from that age out of view then the people who don't have an interest in history will never know who Lee was and what he stood for. I must have missed where the only way of learning about history is through statues. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post StefanAVFC Posted August 17, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) It's worth pointing out that the group who disagreed with the statue coming down, proceeded to march on Charlottesville with Nazi flags and assault rifles. This isn't about people being upset about a statue coming down and history being erased. You don't mobilise with Nazi flags and assault rifles if you're upset about an erasure of history. Which makes any sort of defence against the removal of such statues completely nonsensical. Edited August 17, 2017 by StefanAVFC 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, Rodders said: I think the loudest voice in whether a hitler statue exists comes from the jewish community. I rather suspect they would say heil no. likewise the confederacy was at a time that saw an entire people subjugated. If those people resent it's presence, their voice ought to carry far more weight than racists. And again, don't erase history, just don't have a divisive monument to it. Have a little shed with displays and discussions about pre-civil war america. Coming from said community I think that one of the most powerful places I have been to has been Dachau where the ugly truths of my people's suffering is laid bare. It's possible to make a statue of Hitler (word removed) in a negative light too, but it would be hugely controversial that's for sure. Comparing Hitler to Lee is not really the same either. You could compare Lee to Rommel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LakotaDakota Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 strange all these people are angry about isis destroying half of the historical sites in syria & iraq like the temple of baal, mar eliam monestary, hatra, mosul libriary. Surely this is just fine and acceptable if it is something that they do not like/agree with so they are destroying it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, LakotaDakota said: strange all these people are angry about isis destroying half of the historical sites in syria & iraq like the temple of baal, mar eliam monestary, hatra, mosul libriary. Surely this is just fine and acceptable if it is something that they do not like/agree with so they are destroying it ? Ridiculous whataboutism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Just now, LakotaDakota said: strange all these people are angry about isis destroying half of the historical sites in syria & iraq like the temple of baal, mar eliam monestary, hatra, mosul libriary. Surely this is just fine and acceptable if it is something that they do not like/agree with so they are destroying it ? Yep. We should really go tear down all Oliver Cromwell statues. He's hailed by the British fascists as one of their favourites. Boo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted August 17, 2017 Moderator Share Posted August 17, 2017 Can somebody open a window? We need to get some oxygen into this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 23 minutes ago, Straggler said: Little known fact Buffalo Bill. 14 minutes ago, mjmooney said: Buffalo Bill? He was a showbiz impresario (after helping wipe out the bison)! I always thought of Buffalo Bill as some sort of ancient history, distant and other, but Buffalo Bill performed at my local football stadium! One of his elephants died, it's buried under the toilet block where I pee... as you were... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LakotaDakota Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Ridiculous whataboutism. 1: A monument Exists 2: A group of people find this monument offensive / do not agree with what the monument represents 3: Group of people destroy the monument in question Seems similar to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mjmooney Posted August 17, 2017 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted August 17, 2017 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, LakotaDakota said: 1: A monument Exists 2: A group of people find this monument offensive / do not agree with what the monument represents 3: Group of people destroy the monument in question Seems similar to me It's a totally nonsensical point. Your argument is to compare those who want it pulled down to ISIS. Completely absurd. In your posts about this, I'm yet to see any condemnation of the neo-nazis in Charlottesville. All you've done is make a vague point about who the real 'bad guys' are, and compare those who want the statue down to ISIS. Pretty worrying. Edited August 17, 2017 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LakotaDakota Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I always thought of Buffalo Bill as some sort of ancient history, distant and other, but Buffalo Bill performed at my local football stadium! One of his elephants died, it's buried under the toilet block where I pee... as you were... no real ancient history in modern america is there really. It's only really been a thing for 240 years or so which is crazy really. an awful lot has happened there in such a short period of time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LakotaDakota Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 On 17/08/2017 at 15:27, StefanAVFC said: It's a totally nonsensical point. Your argument is to compare those who want it pulled down to ISIS. Completely absurd. it doesn't compare anyone to isis, it compares their actions to something that is heavily criticised worldwide when isis do it. obviously they do far worse things than the destruction of monuments what do the young white people in this video literally ripping down a statue and stamping, spitting on it know about oppression? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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