U.S. Politics

[peterms]

4 hours ago, Davkaus said:

Yup, no need to condemn the son for his father's crimes when the son is himself a nazi-sympathising scumbag. 

I think it's not a case of condemning him for his father's behaviour, more pointing out the similarities.  Like his father, Trump exercised racist policies in his property empire, and had connections with the mafia.  His connection with white supremacists and his defence of fascists is one more echo.

It's not his fault that he was brought up by a racist, fascist crook.  But it does appear to have influenced his character, judging by his behaviour.

Possibly a psychiatrist could advise on whether his obvious overwhelming need for approval, as shown by his constant self-praise and making things up about how people like him, plays a part in this and might have influenced him following so closely in his father's footsteps.

[magnkarl]

13 hours ago, Chindie said:

Haha. Doubled down on not really condemning Nazis. Easiest thing a politician can do. Can't do it, because that's his base. Utter scum.

Also I think at some point someone might point out what Antifa is. It's anti-Fascist. One sounds bad. The other is basically common sense largely espoused by people possessing a brain world wide for at least 70 years.

Ha. America.

Antifa is far from benign though, let's be honest. If you come to a demonstration dressed in a helmet\stab vest with a baseball bat you clearly aren't there to peacefully protest. We see the same at anarchist marches in the UK. Other than that Donald is losing it. Condemn the crap out of the alt-right, who are absolute scum bags. But I also feel that we are letting a whole group of people on the left who are just as extreme do whatever they want.

Antifa's crimes just in the last few days are many. Punching journalists who were filming them breaking windows, looting etc. Throwing molotov cocktails into windows and at police and other bad things. Just because they're protesting against scumbags doesn't mean that they need to be scumbags themselves. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by magnkarl

[bickster]

The world went to war to fight Fascism and its sibling Nazism. But now when individuals do it, it's wrong. Ok then

Why are anti fascists left? Does that mean the vast majority of sane rational people are left wing?

[NurembergVillan]

 

[magnkarl]

6 minutes ago, bickster said:

The world went to war to fight Fascism and its sibling Nazism. But now when individuals do it, it's wrong. Ok then

Why are anti fascists left? Does that mean the vast majority of sane rational people are left wing?

It's possible to hold two thoughts in your mind at once. Being half Jewish I know more than most about what nazism and facism has done to the world. Do you think Antifa looting stores and burning cars of people not involved in the rally last week is okay then? I for one think nazis and fascists are scum, but I also think antifa and other anarchist groups who seize moments like this to spread havoc and violence should be denounced too. One wrong doesn't make reacting in the same stupid, violent way, right.

And honestly, what does a bunch of anarchist people dressed in helmets, stab gear with weapons have to do with a world fighting the worst killing machine of all times in the 30's-40's. Nothing. You don't aid your cause by punching journalists who film you looting when you are "protesting against fascim", threatening with killing people and worse.

Edited August 16, 2017 by magnkarl

[bickster]

9 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

It's possible to hold two thoughts in your mind at once. Being half Jewish I know more than most about what nazism and facism has done to the world. Do you think Antifa looting stores and burning cars of people not involved in the rally last week is okay then? I for one think nazis and fascists are scum, but I also think antifa and other anarchist groups who seize moments like this to spread havoc and violence should be denounced too. One wrong doesn't make reacting in the same stupid, violent way, right.

And honestly, what does a bunch of anarchist people dressed in helmets, stab gear with weapons have to do with a world fighting the worst killing machine of all times in the 30's-40's. Nothing. You don't aid your cause by punching journalists who film you looting when you are "protesting against fascim", threatening with killing people and worse.

So anarchists are left wing? Erm ok then

Thanks for arguing against me and proving my point

[magnkarl]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

So anarchists are left wing? Erm ok then

Thanks for arguing against me and proving my point

Where did I say that anarchists were left? 

My original argument was that we have a lot of problems with left leaning groups being violent in protests in the UK (BLM, Momentum, SWP). Anarchists like to mix in with their protests and kick things off.

Oh and just for your information, antifa calls themselves "anarcho-communists". Where would you place them on your political spectrum?

Edited August 16, 2017 by magnkarl

[bickster]

Just now, magnkarl said:

Where did I say that anarchists were left? 

35 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Antifa is far from benign though, let's be honest. If you come to a demonstration dressed in a helmet\stab vest with a baseball bat you clearly aren't there to peacefully protest. We see the same at anarchist marches in the UK. Other than that Donald is losing it. Condemn the crap out of the alt-right, who are absolute scum bags. But I also feel that we are letting a whole group of people on the left who are just as extreme do whatever they want.

Antifa's crimes just in the last few days are many. Punching journalists who were filming them breaking windows, looting etc. Throwing molotov cocktails into windows and at police and other bad things. Just because they're protesting against scumbags doesn't mean that they need to be scumbags themselves. 

1

 

 

I suspect I don't need to actually say anything of note here

[magnkarl]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

I suspect I don't need to actually say anything of note here

To be honest  I still think you do. You think that me saying left in junction with anarchism is wrong. Antifa is an anarcho-communist group. Read communist. Where does communism go on the spectrum? It's possible to be an anarchist and have a political leaning. 

[bickster]

19 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

To be honest  I still think you do. You think that me saying left in junction with anarchism is wrong. Antifa is an anarcho-communist group. Read communist. Where does communism go on the spectrum? It's possible to be an anarchist and have a political leaning. 

Anarcho-Syndicalism, not Anarcho-Communism (which is just bizarre)

Here's what the leading US AS website says about Antifa

Quote

Presented as a personal, good faith critique of antifa and not merely an anti-political purist attack, in light of the current moment. Note: this is speaking from a non-European context.

1. : Antifa is essentially limited by being mostly just anti-fascism (or to a degree somewhat against white-supremacy) but antifa usually stops short of being actually radical or revolutionary (explained below). Antifa acts a wall (“¡no pasarán!“) where as revolt is a bulldozer. As an anarchist I am not interested in just stopping the current tide but creating a whole new wave.
2. : Antifa in Los Angeles (& in its vicinity) from what I have seen has been a mostly white subculture, where white Leftists can express their anti-racist-ness instead of an embodying an actual (anti)political force. They show up to nazi rallies but not much else. I did read somewhere that a NYC antifa group once drove up to Queens for a pro-immigrant noise demo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
3. : A united front against fascism has never really worked out well for those of us who want to destroy more than just fascism. Our desires to do more than destroy, and/or prevent fascism, find themselves indefinitely tabled. Antifa is not a political project and has no real political content beyond “let’s beat up racists.” I do see now an attempt to extend the project of antifa beyond this historical limit point but instead of attempting to extend the project I would rather further other actual radical projects.
4. : Anti-fascism tends to point to a return to a less-racist status quo but usually does not look at structural things deeply enough to understand that to be against white-supremacy would include being against the USA as a colonial nation-state. Antifa sees trees where there is indeed a forest; in that they view the enemy as an individual (i.e. Trump) or groupings of Nazis or other racist white-nationalists instead of analyzing the structural nature of our racist society. This is an analysis that is but a few steps removed from the Liberal position that we should just all get along.
5. : Antifa often bases itself in a type of good vs. evil moralism which assume being against white-supremacy or racism is a purely personal choice made by good people, thus once again obscuring structural and impersonal white-supremacy. Antifa often makes appeals to “duty” as its motive, instead of self-defense or something else (though now the language has shifted toward self-defense). This likely speaks to the historical mostly white makeup of antifa.
6. : To describe every material action against racists and/or white nationalists as antifa, as some in antifa do, is to erase the resistance and revolt of those who are not antifa but something all their own.

If Antifa were to oust Donald Trump and to somehow de-mobilize every single racist in this society we would be left with a situation akin to what those in the Arab Spring experienced. The head of the State and its lackeys may be ousted but there persists the structure of the State and its manifold institutions. A reportback from Tunisia states as much. The revolt against fascism (or a bonafide dictator) must seek to go beyond a sort of purification of the territory. Racism is not just the action of organized white racists, but the perpetuation of a whole system. Obviously, what is not mentioned above is another glaring omission of antifa: a substantive critique of capitalism.

Lastly, antifa bears no real critique of democracy, whether representative or direct. This is mostly due to its lack of politics. This returns to the reality that antifa lies dormant when the status quo, that does not trouble it, rumbles on. As noted in Dixie Be Damned, “white supremacy’s greatest ally in this country has been democracy, not fascism.” Since antifa relies on demonization as part of its mobilization, it could not (and did not) mobilize in any way against the Obama administration. Antifa may have seen Obama as contemptible, but fears of being seen as racist blocked resistance to Obama and his policies (this was even more broadly seen on the Left). Anarchists and anti-state communists bear no such compunctions. We know the enemy is not just fascism or organized white racists but the whole of this society.

All this to say, of course I am against fascism but I am also against many other things. Critiques of these notes will come on like a flood. I may be attacked as not giving the answer to what is to be done now in our current moment. I would contend that the goal is the same (full communism) but because of the upswing of the Right that we will need defensive measures. It would behoove us to make of our defensive measures ones that are also offensive. The Liberals and the Left already are making calls for unity and safety above all, but what has been necessary is to foster antagonisms and the antagonisms have never been as high as they are now. Should we put away our partisan rage now? And on safety: this society has not only failed to keep us safe before Trump, it has been actively attacking us as an internal insurgency with racist, sexist, anti-immigrant, transphobic, xenophobic and capitalist violence. Safety should be a given but we know that real safety comes with a fundamentally different form of life.

Let’s open the possibilities of our revolt against this society instead of foreclosing them. Let’s roll.

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 Clicky

[magnkarl]

Back on subject it's not very weird that Donald is saying these things considering he's surrounded himself with some of the poster boys of the alt-right.

Sebastian Gorka - wearing the honourary medal of Vitezi Rend. A group which helped collect, kill and deport over 400.000 Jews, Roma and other ethnicities in Hungary during WW2.

Michael Anton - previous blogger under the name "publius decius mus", comparing a whole host of horrible events with "militarist Islam", spewing out racism and generally being scum of the earth.

Steve Bannon - ex-owner of Breitbart News (got fired, removed or whatever), called his publication "the gathering place of the alt-right". 

I wonder who of the above wrote his speech yesterday? My guess is on Anton.

Edited August 16, 2017 by magnkarl

[magnkarl]

26 minutes ago, bickster said:

Anarcho-Syndicalism, not Anarcho-Communism (which is just bizarre)

Here's what the leading US AS website says about Antifa

 Clicky

Yeah I find the whole sub culture discussion about anarchists really weird too. Back in the day an anarchist was someone who was against all state (left, right, centre). Now it seems they are a bit unsure of what to call themselves really. Wearing shirts like this surely points them a bit left?

Note the sigil though, the one symbols of one of the biggest state run countries ever to have existed in the world. It's all quite confusing to be an anarchist but to align yourself with a mantra of wanting a state to control everything.

What I do agree with everyone with is that Trump is surely on his last legs now, this can't possibly go on for much longer. 

Re anarcho-syndicalism vs anarcho-communism. Generally I agree with this, however Antifa themselves claim over and over that they are anarcho-communists. Anarcho-syndicalism actually makes sense, while the communism things doesn't mix well with anarchism at all. 

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by magnkarl

[meregreen]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

Where did I say that anarchists were left? 

My original argument was that we have a lot of problems with left leaning groups being violent in protests in the UK (BLM, Momentum, SWP). Anarchists like to mix in with their protests and kick things off.

Oh and just for your information, antifa calls themselves "anarcho-communists". Where would you place them on your political spectrum?

What incident of violence have momentum been involved in, or do you simply put them in there to reflect your own prejudice.

[StefanAVFC]

Yeah really struggling to think of violence caused by Momentum.

I detest this false equivalence.

People act as if counter-protesters get angry and 'violent' over something as benign as a difference in opinion.

 These far-right nutters are white supremacists. Nazis.

Forgive me for questioning the moral high ground when one of these racists gets a slap.

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by StefanAVFC

[Seat68]

"I do think there's blame on both sides. You look at both sides. I think there's blame on both sides and I have no doubt about it and you don't have any doubt about it either and- and- and- and if you reported it accurately, you would say it."

Forget the fascists, the nazis, forget them as there was bad people trying to stop the abhorrent scum, and AND they didn't have a permit to stop them.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Seat68

[choffer]

 

[meregreen]

It really shouldn't be that difficult to condemn fascist neo naziism, wherever it raises its ugly head. The fact that the President of the United States, a country that gave thousands of lives in the , as Eisenhower stated " Great Crusade" against such evil, cannot unequivocally make a simple statement condemning such groups, without having his arm twisted up his back, is both sad and shameful. Truly this man is the most undignified person ever to hold this office.

[PompeyVillan]

52 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Where did I say that anarchists were left? 

My original argument was that we have a lot of problems with left leaning groups being violent in protests in the UK (BLM, Momentum, SWP). Anarchists like to mix in with their protests and kick things off.

Oh and just for your information, antifa calls themselves "anarcho-communists". Where would you place them on your political spectrum?

Can you point me towards some evidence of Momentum being violent. Via PM is fine.

[Dr_Pangloss]

I really do not understand the need that some have (including Trump)  to 'balance' this all out. Whilst it's most likely the case that the leftists have 'violent' and disruptive elements, this absolutely pales into insignificance when you look at the extreme right group marching around doing the Nazi salute, and with one individual taking it to the extreme of ploughing into a group of people in his car and killing one of them. The 'alt-right' in this incident are infinitely more dangerous to social order than the left.

[andym]

I would guess that it allows him to play to his wider base. He can't/won't denounce the far right of his own volition because they support him and play a big part in his administration (Bannon, Gorka etc). 

However, many who voted for him are quite clearly not Nazis, and find the far right just as abhorrent. If he simply just refuses to condemn the far right and say nothing else, he runs the risk of losing their support.

So he bluffs and bludgeons his way through press conferences, deliberately glossing over the Nazi element, and focusses instead on a simple left vs right narrative. This way he can say he has condemned violence from the right, but then it also keeps his wider supporters happy as he can balance it out with the left is just as bad/liberal MSM nonsense that they lap up. 

Any criticism against him is then seen as 'fake news', as to them he has denounced the violence and perpetrator of the attack. His supporters don't realise the bigger issue people have is that he seems to be perfectly ok with Nazis doing torchlit processions around American towns, because he just ignores any questions to do with it.