allani Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 minute ago, sheepyvillian said: Where's my coat? The problem is that we have put our weakest link at the most important point in the chain and told it that it is the best link ever and that we wished all the other links were as good as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 They clearly aren’t playing for the manager and have no idea what it is he wants them to do (does anyone). I think they see through him, have realised he has no idea what he is doing so are doing enough to stay out of serious danger while making it obvious that the manager needs to go. Summary: They are underplaying to show up Gerrard. Just my opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 38 minutes ago, Ingram85 said: They clearly aren’t playing for the manager and have no idea what it is he wants them to do (does anyone). I think they see through him, have realised he has no idea what he is doing so are doing enough to stay out of serious danger while making it obvious that the manager needs to go. Summary: They are underplaying to show up Gerrard. Just my opinion. Did they also underplay to show up Dean? Because a fair few of them were pretty awful for very long spells under his leadership too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, allani said: Did they also underplay to show up Dean? Because a fair few of them were pretty awful for very long spells under his leadership too. Towards the end, quite possibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 40 minutes ago, Ingram85 said: They clearly aren’t playing for the manager and have no idea what it is he wants them to do (does anyone). I think they see through him, have realised he has no idea what he is doing so are doing enough to stay out of serious danger while making it obvious that the manager needs to go. Summary: They are underplaying to show up Gerrard. Just my opinion. PS - Any player who is deliberately under performing and therefore threatening the well being of my club (relegation would be absolutely catastrophic) should be shown the door almost as quickly as the manager - if not quicker. I do think Gerrard is trying to get results but is just not getting them. Incompetence is one thing. But deliberately being **** to make a point is way more serious. If the Board decide that they want to stick with Gerrard then when would it be acceptable for those players to decide not to be **** and start doing what they are paid to do?? If we get relegated then would that be on Gerrard for not being good enough or the players for being good enough but deliberately deciding to play badly because they didn't like their boss? Incompetence isn't negligence. Deliberately sabotaging performance to get the manager sacked is gross negligence at pretty much the worst level it can possibly get - other than maybe being **** because you've taken a few quid to rig some betting scam. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVTuco Posted October 13, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted October 13, 2022 Our players are very ordinary and average. With Jack, it was ok because he would take care of business himself. Without a star like him, we're right where we belong, Gerrard or no Gerrard. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishVilla10 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 31 minutes ago, AVTuco said: Our players are very ordinary and average. With Jack, it was ok because he would take care of business himself. Without a star like him, we're right where we belong, Gerrard or no Gerrard. It’s impossible to say when they’re being sent out and told to do the same thing every week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) There are shortcomings in our finishing and decision making, absolutely. I just don't think Gerrard gives the players the confidence they need, the mystique of Gerrard means little when he retreats into his stoic shell on the touchline. Nor do baffling tactical changes and formations - he manages to get Emi and Coutinho into the same XI but somehow gets the worst out of them. He hasn't resolved our mental weaknesses and we've had too many distractions. Perhaps Gerrard has lost confidence in himself. Gone are, for me at least, the interesting matchday perspectives, instead he grumbles to local journalists and handled the Mings situation poorly (though I do think it was blown out of proportion, he put himself in a position that was avoidable). Gerrard was brought in with a mandate of progress, but with successive coaches, and an inability to get much out of other coaches (here's looking at you MacPhee), he just cannot get it to click. Injuries set us back, but still, for reasons nobody knows, the likes of Sanson don't get a start, he progresses with McGinn and Ollie who just aren't up to scratch, and he's playing Ings in a detrimental way. I will happily point out the faults of players at critical moments, it costs us dearly, indeed. Gerrard doesn't however create the conditions that will help players progress because he's shackled them to ideas he's not even sure of. Edited October 13, 2022 by The_Steve 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoony Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 It’s a bit of a catch 22 for me. I think Gerrard is a bad manager. I also think these players are not good enough to be any higher up the table than we are (Konsa, Mings, McGinn, Watkins, Ings, Digne, Bailey and tbh Douglas Luiz, arguably Cash, are not top 10 players). So whose fault is it actually? I just don’t know. I think we might just be total shite from to to bottom despite spending alarming sums of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted October 13, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted October 13, 2022 Was originally posted in the Gerrard thread. I accept that this could be (and has been) used to say that Gerrard did well overall last season. On 11/10/2022 at 16:40, Mark Albrighton said: If the table began from his first game up to and including the Man City capitulation, Villa - 9th, just about. Completely without Kamara and Carlos and a proportion of it without Coutinho, Digne, Chambers. If the players are no good, then I struggle to fathom how a manager who the majority feel is also not particularly good, got them to 9th (in terms of form) over the 27 games. Unless the view is that, well, all the teams from 9th to 20th are shit and Villa just happened to be the least shit during this time. But y’know that’s just how the table works, the teams below you aren’t as good as you. I’m quite happy for us to have completely terrible squad in the premier league - provided there are 19 clubs with worse My feeling is that it’s about the level the players as a whole can reach and that Gerrard’s management ability is poorer than the squad’s playing abilities and it’s become much clearer as time has progressed. I suspect last season was masked somewhat with the new manager bounce. That’s not to say I don’t think a couple of the first team should have their playing time reduced and their competition for positions strengthened. I also feel like we miss a strong leader/talisman nearer the top of the pitch. I think they hoped Coutinho/Buendia could be that between them, but hasn’t quite worked out that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 5 hours ago, allani said: Did they also underplay to show up Dean? Because a fair few of them were pretty awful for very long spells under his leadership too. Who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Field Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 7 hours ago, Ingram85 said: They clearly aren’t playing for the manager and have no idea what it is he wants them to do (does anyone). I think they see through him, have realised he has no idea what he is doing so are doing enough to stay out of serious danger while making it obvious that the manager needs to go. Summary: They are underplaying to show up Gerrard. Just my opinion. I dont personally agree with this, i do feel like a majority of our players are putting in shits every game and are really trying. Its just they have no idea how to play in his "system" and are clueless on what to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brummybloke Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 We've seen it time and time again, a manager who motivates a team of average players to far exceed fans expectations. We've also seen time and time again, talented teams with crap managers fail to achieve what they are expected to do. We fall into the second category Since the faux manager came in he has demotivated the majority of our players by either ignoring them, trying to humiliate them, playing them as numbers on a pitch rather than as individual players with strengths and weaknesses and accommodating the formations and tactics to suit the players available and hanging them out to dry. If I had a supervisor at work treating me or my colleagues like that, I would be walking ASAP. Nothing wrong with being a strict manager, people can accept that as long as people are treated respectfully and we progress. Same for being a 'soft' manager, if people are treated with respect you get the best out of them. Come in as a beginner thinking and acting like you know it all and pissing people off is a rookie managers most common error, expecting people to respond positively because you feel scared or intimidated as that's the only way they can try and show they are in charge. Seen it happen too many times in my life and they end up pissing off even the most loyal and diligent of workers. Going out on the pitch full of apprehension that you could be the next target from the rookie managers crap management tactics is hardly going to instil confidence in either individuals or the team. All basic things that are far beyond the comprehension of the suited scouser. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Platt Posted October 14, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted October 14, 2022 The players are baffled by the tactics it's plain to see. The only tactic is keep the ball waste time and hope. They have had enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 (edited) The players should take some of the blame, but even to a neutral Villa's set-up looks a total mess. Plus Gerrard clearly has his favourites who seem undroppable even if they are struggling. What is the point of having a deep squad if you never rotate? As we are never in Europe or have deep cup runs we have loads of players depreciating in value whilst we are paying them above market wages in salary. Edited October 14, 2022 by The Fun Factory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 12 hours ago, Spoony said: It’s a bit of a catch 22 for me. I think Gerrard is a bad manager. I also think these players are not good enough to be any higher up the table than we are (Konsa, Mings, McGinn, Watkins, Ings, Digne, Bailey and tbh Douglas Luiz, arguably Cash, are not top 10 players). So whose fault is it actually? I just don’t know. I think we might just be total shite from to to bottom despite spending alarming sums of money. All of them are good enough to be in a top half side IMO. Our squad, on paper, is good. The manager just isn't getting a tune out of them - particularly in the attacking third, which is where our problems lie really. If we had an attacking threat, we'd be doing so much better right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 17 hours ago, Zatman said: Who? Well just look at the results and general performances from January to October 2021 and I think it is pretty obvious that the team was pretty poor whenever they couldn't just pass the ball to Jack and hope that he would do something special. Mings was getting regularly bashed on this forum for making sloppy mistakes, opinion was divided on whether Doug or McGinn was the weak link in the midfield (but at that time a lot of people were still living in SJM can do no wrong land - many of whom have now potentially changed their tune), our wingers (now moved on) were lambasted on a regular basis for not being able to beat their man. Just go back and read some of the old threads. There were dissenting voices about Dean not having a Plan B, the difference in our win rate when Jack was / was not in the side, Dean's unwillingness to make substitutions until well after 60 minutes even when it was obvious that things were not working, the fact that our default tactic (if Jack wasn't available) seemed to be to pump the ball into the channel for Ollie to chase after it, our lack of creativity when teams parked the bus in front of us, the fact that our defence seemed to have at least one massive c0ck up per match in them, etc, etc. Jack papered over a lot of those cracks and we also had one purple patch where we looked like a pretty good team. For two thirds of the 20/21 season we were in pretty much relegation form, for one third we were in CL form. Has Gerrard made us any better? All the evidence suggests not (except maybe an acknowledgement that on paper at least the ability of our squad has improved). Has he proven to be an upgrade on Smith that we were promised? Almost certainly not. But Smith's name has hardly been at the top of any speculation links when it comes to PL clubs looking for a new manager since he left. I still think we are only a couple of key signings away from being a good team - Boubs, ANO and Doug or JJ - with McGinn coming on for 20 - 30 minutes is pretty good midfield. But Smith and Gerrard have both failed miserably to get the balance in midfield correct and / or in persuading the recruitment team that that is where we needed to focus our attention. I think our defence would look much better being marshalled by Carlos - although to be fair Mings has responded pretty well to all the issues this summer even without his new CB partner. Would a new manager get the current team playing better? I would hope so. But is there enough evidence to suggest that the current team are good enough for the top half? Not really. A good start in 2020 and a bounce when Gerrard arrive look much more like the exception rather than the rule. Our balance is wrong. Smith and Gerrard have both failed to address that issue. Smith probably made less of a hash of it - but at the same time he was 90% reliant on Jack to do it. The manager is ultimately to blame. No mistake. But there are several senior players who should be looking at themselves in the mirror and asking whether they've really been good enough - because they haven't. The big difference between 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022 is that Jack isn't around to step in and drag the rest of the team along with him and no-one else has stepped up to the mark to do that. Jack helped average players look good around him. Since he has left they've pretty much resorted to looking average again (at best). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 (edited) The attacking tactics are all wrong. The team selection for midfield and the front line is all wrong. SG hasn't figured it out. It's really that simple. While I'm in the "SG out" camp, I do think that, because they want SG gone bad so badly, some "SG out" peopIe around here are trying to see additional problems where there are none. I. see very little evidence that the players are deliberately underperforming because they hate SG. After a poor start, the back line have cleaned up their act. We gave up 6 goals in our first 3 matches. However, we've given up only 5 in the last 6 matches, and 3 of those were to the top 2 teams in the league. If they were deliberately sabotaging things, the defence wouldn't be moving in the right direction. In fact, other than Sanson and Naka [edit: and Mings], I've seen very little evidence that the players even dislike SG. Dougie wouldn't have signed a new contract if he hates SG. Have some players underperformed? Clearly McGinn has. Clearly Coutinho has. Maybe the two of them are just off their game; then SG should drop them. Maybe it's the tactics; then SG should adapt his tactics. Either way, it goes back to him. So, while a little blame may lie on a few specific players, I wouldn't say (to quote the thread subject) that there's "plenty of blame to go around" among the players. Ultimately, the problem is SG's decisions. Edited October 15, 2022 by TomC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nepal_villan Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 When the entire team is struggling that is on the management. We have proven internationals and UCL players across our squad - you don't forget how to play football overnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Lot of players need a kicking as well. Paid a fortune but can't be bothered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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