The Players: Plenty of Blame to Go Around?

[ozvilla28]

1 hour ago, juanpablosaliceband said:

Doing ok 
Kamara, Mings

Underperforming 
Martinez, Cash, Konsa, Digne, McGinn, Ramsey, Coutinho, Buendia, Bailey, Watkins, Ings

Underused  
Luiz. Under appreciated and likely to leave on a free with a 15 million loss. 

Cast aside / loaned out / value depreciating 
Guilbert, Traore, Sanson, Hause

Players publicly undermining Gerrard
Nakamba, Bailey, Sanson…..

No style of play, almost no players playing to their full potential, no cohesion between players on the pitch, no connection with the fans, players look lost on the pitch. The sad part is the players look genuine and willing to give their all if properly coached. 

The Gerrard appointment has been an unmitigated disaster. Are there any positives from Gerrard’s management? Maybe the Kamara free signing. Carry on like this and relegation will become an inevitability. I’d give the reins to Critchley on a temporary basis rather than give Gerrard another game in charge. 

Our salary is estimated as eighth highest in the league. We sit 19th, heading for 20th. 

I do agree we have pack of slack under performing big name players out there letting us down no heart or soul in this villa side at all can't even do the basics.

[TRO]

20 hours ago, Villarocker said:

I hear what you're saying TRO. Maybe chopping managers all the time isn't the right way? I think that with Gerrard people will become less patient for multiple reasons: 1) Not a very likeable person - miserable git! 2) Liverpool connection 3) Way he used to play against us when a Liverpool player 4) Unknown qty other than winning a two horse race in Scotland 5) His treatment of certain players 6) He came in after Smith so someone without a connection to the club after someone who was Villa through and through etc. However, I believe that most, if not all, of those could be forgiven if we the fans could see some sort of identity in the way we are trying to play. Right now, we look completely out of ideas as a team. I watch us and have no idea what we are trying to do and it just seems like he himself has no ideas. I'd love him to tell us what exactly it is he is trying to get the players to do because I have no clue. 

I had the feeling last season that we were playing like a team that was trying to get the manager sacked. I think I even stated so on here in the Gerrard thread at one point. If that is the case, there's no better time to do that than at the start of the season when there's plenty of time to turn things around under a new manager. I just get the feeling he's pissed too many of them off with the way he is and the way he has gone about things. Now, maybe he is right. Maybe he sees weak players and wants to toughen them up for a fight for success and some aren't up to it. But, unless the club throw plenty of money at him I doubt he will be able to get rid of them and get players in that he does want.

I get the feeling the money has dried up to an extent in order to pay for the rebuild. With that in mind, surely we would be looking for a replacement with an eye on that and would want someone to get the best out of what we already have? I think that man right now would probably be Graham Potter. He is supposedly a Villa fan so they might wish to explore that route again whilst we get through the transitional period of rebuilding the stadium. 

To be honest, I think all any real fan wants is to get some entertainment for their money. Right now, we certainly aren't getting value for money from our team in terms of what they putting on show. 

I suspect that to be so, we need to remember, many of these got Dean the sack......He said last night " we are asking them to do things, like close down, be first the ball etc,etc and they are just not doing it.....Their running stats are generally poor, are they incapable?

Cashs defending at the back post is scandalous, who can legislate for that, Martinez has gone back to the form of why Arsenal released him........I thought Watkins was in Hyde park, in his own passive world......This lot will get any manager the sack, playing like they are.

Edited September 1, 2022 by TRO

[daft]

52 minutes ago, TRO said:

I suspect that to be so, we need to remember, many of these got Dean the sack......He said last night " we are asking them to do things, like close down, be first the ball etc,etc and they are just not doing it.....Their running stats are generally poor, are they incapable?

Cashs defending at the back post is scandalous, who can legislate for that, Martinez has gone back to the form of why Arsenal released him........I thought Watkins was in Hyde park, in his own passive world......This lot will get any manager the sack.

Yeah, the defending of our right channel and wide space was abysmal, especially for the second goal. 

We looked like we lack pace as well in the attack. 

It's just a mess, and I fear it's not only Gerrard. But wtf do I know? 

[tinker]

This is a better squad of players than 20/21 season when we finished 11th. Gerrard is and always was out of his depth as a manager, at Villa. He should have had the sense to stay at Rangers and learn his trade. 

As a player he could afford to be arrogant and aloof, as a manager he needs to be exactly the opposite and I don't think he can. 

. 

 

[a m ole]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I suspect that to be so, we need to remember, many of these got Dean the sack......He said last night " we are asking them to do things, like close down, be first the ball etc,etc and they are just not doing it.....Their running stats are generally poor, are they incapable?

Cashs defending at the back post is scandalous, who can legislate for that, Martinez has gone back to the form of why Arsenal released him........I thought Watkins was in Hyde park, in his own passive world......This lot will get any manager the sack.

Because the set up is a **** mess and they’re not in the right positions to close down and be the first to the ball, if you’re a fullback on the corner flag it’s hard to be first to a loose ball out to the wing on the half way line. He’s asking them to do the impossible and wondering why it isn’t working. They’re not incapable, Gerrard had been talking all preseason about how fit they were. IT IS THE SYSTEM. it’s crippling them. It gives the opposition players yards advantage and not being off balance.

Edited September 1, 2022 by a m ole

[TRO]

On 29/08/2022 at 22:17, Marka Ragnos said:

I think I have a better sense now, as many of us do, of the Gerrard management regime’s current weaknesses and the desperate, toothless, weird lack of identity in his recent tactics. Got that. 

But I just re-watched the West Ham match — and I encourage others to do so if they can withstand the misery — and I think it’s hard to miss the repeated cringeworthy failures of our players to connect shots and passes. Jesus. Shot after shot of almosts and one flubbed pass after another.

Where is our quality?

Yes, tactics and player quality are to an extent indissoluble, but player quality issues also can be a pretty severe problem in their own right. I feel our next manager can’t mask those.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not “blaming the players,” or letting Gerrard off the hook.

I think it’s more complicated than that.

But Ings looks tired and very “almost.” Watkins’ form is inconsistent. McGinn’s aim is disastrous. Countinho is off target and slow as ****. Bailey’s shooting is high. Etc etc.

To me it seems like there’s a lot of blame to go around at the moment. Even if Gerrard does leave. He’s not the only problem.

I’m not sure that having a more consistent system or better training or having the players get to know each other better will resolve such quality issues. 

 

My sentiments entirely.

This squad as a group are overhyped....just one point amongst many I could make, and can't be bothered.

• Baileys super charged pace......what pace?....He isn't showing any pace.

I fear, for the next guy, in charge.

[KevinRichardsonsMoustache]

2 minutes ago, a m ole said:

Because the set up is a **** mess and they’re not in the right positions to close down and be the first to the ball, if you’re a fullback on the corner flag it’s hard to be first to a loose ball out to the wing on the half way line. He’s asking them to do the impossible and wondering why it isn’t working. They’re not incapable, Gerrard had been talking all preseason about how fit they were. IT IS THE SYSTEM. it’s crippling them. It gives the opposition players yards advantage and not being off balance.

Hard agree. While many of our players are limited in some way, SG's system doesn't allow them to do the simple things properly. A fullback will struggle to consistently close players down (let alone be in the right position defensively) if you've set them up to be on the half way line or beyond for much of the half. The midfield will be overrun if they're expected to do double duty when covering for absent full backs. 

[a m ole]

If these players are so bad you’d fear for the next manager who has to get something from them then Dean Smith is an absolute genius and the best manager in history.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, a m ole said:

Because the set up is a **** mess and they’re not in the right positions to close down and be the first to the ball, if you’re a fullback on the corner flag it’s hard to be first to a loose ball out to the wing on the half way line. He’s asking them to do the impossible and wondering why it isn’t working. They’re not incapable, Gerrard had been talking all preseason about how fit they were. IT IS THE SYSTEM. it’s crippling them. It gives the opposition players yards advantage and not being off balance.

So what is the right system to save us from this debacle.

What is he missing, that you are sure would redeem us?

The yards of advantage I see from the opposition, is a willingness to run, a first touch, to bring the ball under control.

I think if players are not doing whats been asked of them, its easy to blame the system......I remember the previous manager saying " I didn't ask them to do that".......Last night SG reiterated, much the same.

However, I do accept, its the managers job, to get them to do what they ask....and right now, it does look a bloody mess.....I can't see past him going, but I won't hold my breath, that, the next guy will have it easy.

I think the thread title is right.....players have a responsibilty, for their form,too,  its not always someone elses fault.

[one_ian_taylor]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I suspect that to be so, we need to remember, many of these got Dean the sack......He said last night " we are asking them to do things, like close down, be first the ball etc,etc and they are just not doing it.....Their running stats are generally poor, are they incapable?

Cashs defending at the back post is scandalous, who can legislate for that, Martinez has gone back to the form of why Arsenal released him........I thought Watkins was in Hyde park, in his own passive world......This lot will get any manager the sack.

Thing is, a lot of those players were also involved  in the 7-2, also went to Old Trafford and won last year etc. When  heads drop and players sart to second guess themselves,  probably most squads  of players could get most managers sacked. 

The players have to take a share of the blame, but it's a cycle of poor confidence leading to errors and not knowing what to do. A lot of that comes from the top - we have all seen it before and we all know how it ends in 99% of cases. Gerrard will be setting the team up not to lose as far as possible, because that's  the only way  to break the spiral. But it's  not working

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, one_ian_taylor said:

Thing is, a lot of those players were also involved  in the 7-2, also went to Old Trafford and won last year etc. When  heads drop and players sart to second guess themselves,  probably most squads  of players could get most managers sacked. 

The players have to take a share of the blame, but it's a cycle of poor confidence leading to errors and not knowing what to do. A lot of that comes from the top - we have all seen it before and we all know how it ends in 99% of cases. Gerrard will be setting the team up not to lose as far as possible, because that's  the only way  to break the spiral. But it's  not working

I am in no doubt now, its a matter of time......Sadly, I just don't see this lot on their own, being any different, under a new manager......I hope I am wrong, I want to be wrong.

I accept the criticisms of the manager.....but I see players, not doing the basics too.

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by TRO

[one_ian_taylor]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am in no doubt now, its a matter of time......Sadly, I just don't see this lot on their own, being any different, under a new manager......I hope I am wrong, I want to be wrong.

 

Trying to think back to what the general feeling about the squad was before Bruce went. Very different situation, but I think a lot would have written many of those players off that then went on to play their part in our promotion run. 

As we know, past form is not always a reliable indicator of future performance, but for example Mings, Ings, Buendia, Watkins,  Cash, Martinez have all performed well at this level  (not necessarily for us). Small changes can make a difference and a good coach can transform  a player.  

If it's  an attitude issue then it's  a bit different, but it would he hard to believe  that was universally true across the squad unless  we have recruited  spectacularly badly

[TRO]

13 minutes ago, one_ian_taylor said:

Thing is, a lot of those players were also involved  in the 7-2, also went to Old Trafford and won last year etc. When  heads drop and players sart to second guess themselves,  probably most squads  of players could get most managers sacked. 

The players have to take a share of the blame, but it's a cycle of poor confidence leading to errors and not knowing what to do. A lot of that comes from the top - we have all seen it before and we all know how it ends in 99% of cases. Gerrard will be setting the team up not to lose as far as possible, because that's  the only way  to break the spiral. But it's  not working

Yes and one isn't here anymore, to hold their hand.

[PieFacE]

When there isn't a single player who looks in form, then the problem lies elsewhere. 

[one_ian_taylor]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

Yes and one isn't here anymore, to hold their hand.

Fair point, and when he was injured that season performances were poor on the whole - but not entirely from memory. Before the rotten run which got Smith sacked, there were decent performances. Suggests we are short of a player or two maybe, but doesn't  hide the fact that we could and should be doing better

[Dale]

34 minutes ago, TRO said:

fear, for the next guy, in charge.

I don't. Gerrard has lowered the expectations to way below the quality of the squad! 

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, Dale said:

I don't. Gerrard has lowered the expectations to way below the quality of the squad! 

its worked, then......He's bailed them out.

[Dillon66]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I suspect that to be so, we need to remember, many of these got Dean the sack......He said last night " we are asking them to do things, like close down, be first the ball etc,etc and they are just not doing it.....Their running stats are generally poor, are they incapable?

Cashs defending at the back post is scandalous, who can legislate for that, Martinez has gone back to the form of why Arsenal released him........I thought Watkins was in Hyde park, in his own passive world......This lot will get any manager the sack, playing like they are.

Fully agree with you - for all Gerrard's faults (and there are a few) a manager can't legislate for so called professional footballers who can't even do the basics right. The number of 5-10 yard balls that go astray is a joke at this level. People not tracking runners, caught out of position etc......blaming it on tactics is the easy way out for the players. Elite level sportsmen should be taking responsibility for their performances, at the moment its all on the coach and these jokers are getting a free ride.

[villanmac]

31 minutes ago, a m ole said:

If these players are so bad you’d fear for the next manager who has to get something from them then Dean Smith is an absolute genius and the best manager in history.

We go back to the Smith with and without Grealish record then which has been done to death so doesn't need covering again. I do agree they are overhyped ability wise, i felt sympathy for Smith in that regard last season. I get hammered for saying the likes of Cash and Watkins are technically so poor. Absolute workhorses yes, run all day, incredible stamina but i dont see anything else to rave about technically but then its like they are worth 40/50mill apparently and Watkins scored x in y games when Grealish was here. Then you add in the likes of Konsa, Mcginn who cant do the basics of their position and Ramsey is the 2nd coming of Christ because hes good at carrying the ball into space.

This is no defence of Gerrard though, you can still get way better out of these players then what is being produced.

 

[KAZZAM]

The team(chain) is only as strong as its weakest link(Mcginn).