Nabby Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 The first half was players running around working as hard as they could to get ball but with no clear tactic oh how to press or what to do once they got it .It was pointed out time and time again in comms we where set up too narrow and allowing Arsenal to get wide easily , this is tactics you could see the MF all close to each other leaving space wide. When we did get the ball going forward there was no one in the box.This is also not a new thing it why our endless crossing from FB's get's us zero joy. The players where bad last night on ball , they have no confidence from what I can see in themselves or what they are supposed to be doing. This is what happens when you keep losing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Dillon66 said: Fully agree with you - for all Gerrard's faults (and there are a few) a manager can't legislate for so called professional footballers who can't even do the basics right. The number of 5-10 yard balls that go astray is a joke at this level. People not tracking runners, caught out of position etc......blaming it on tactics is the easy way out for the players. Elite level sportsmen should be taking responsibility for their performances, at the moment its all on the coach and these jokers are getting a free ride. Totally, agree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 I, don't, agree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nabby said: The first half was players running around working as hard as they could to get ball but with no clear tactic oh how to press or what to do once they got it .It was pointed out time and time again in comms we where set up too narrow and allowing Arsenal to get wide easily , this is tactics you could see the MF all close to each other leaving space wide. When we did get the ball going forward there was no one in the box.This is also not a new thing it why our endless crossing from FB's get's us zero joy. The players where bad last night on ball , they have no confidence from what I can see in themselves or what they are supposed to be doing. This is what happens when you keep losing. The problem is......we close down the middle and stay compact and leave the flanks open........we close down the flanks and leave holes in the middle. We simply, don't get about the pitch like other teams do. We could do worse than see where to chain breaks and focus on that link......Cash has repeatedly, failed to cut out danger at the back post which has resulted in goals against, in many games lately...He doesn't get tight, he gets beaten in the air, and he ball watches when it goes over the far side of the box, and loses his man, when it gets knocked back. As soon as we scored....He could have brought on Chambers to shore up the defence. The players do have to take responsibilty too. Edited September 1, 2022 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: I, don't, agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) It will be funny, in a way, when Gerrard goes and it’s as if the players magically learned how to play again. A squad assembled north of 200 million that can’t do the basics or a manager so out of his depth that he’s got them in an awful system that hampers them? We had a lineup of Watkins, Traore, and El Ghazi as well as Sanson, Mcginn, and Luiz in behind that had more fluidity than the current setup. And somehow it’s the fault of these much more talented players? Rubbish. Edited September 1, 2022 by DJBOB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted September 1, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted September 1, 2022 The players (sans Coutinho, Digne, Kamara, Chambers, Carlos…bearing in mind) looked like they knew what they were doing when they beat Man Utd and then again when they beat Brighton, Palace, Leicester when Gerrard first came in. They were good, determined victories. Same could be said for the wins against Leeds and Southampton by which time Coutinho, Digne and Chambers were brought in. They’re not without fault or blame, but they are better than they currently performing. By some distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon66 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 1 hour ago, DJBOB said: It will be funny, in a way, when Gerrard goes and it’s as if the players magically learned how to play again. A squad assembled north of 200 million that can’t do the basics or a manager so out of his depth that he’s got them in an awful system that hampers them? We had a lineup of Watkins, Traore, and El Ghazi as well as Sanson, Mcginn, and Luiz in behind that had more fluidity than the current setup. And somehow it’s the fault of these much more talented players? Rubbish. As over half of the squad are the same players who managed to get the previous manager sacked I'm not sure your theory holds much water.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 What I would say is that it's difficult to judge our front 5 with Gerrard in charge as they are feeding if scraps and obviously are low on confidence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 21 minutes ago, handsworthvilla said: To be fair if he was to leave tomorrow I don't think we're any worse off for the signings he has made. The only one you could really debate is Coutinho. Bouba / Carlos / Digne are all solid players that I'm sure the next manager will be more than happy to work with. But yeh if you mean 2 or 3 more Coutinho's then yes that is worrying. Even Dendonker, Bednarek, Augustinininininson, Olsen and Chambers are an upgrade on the squad players we had before. It was a huge mistake not bringing in another quality midfielder in the summer and I also think we should have tried harder to bring in a new striker (one who might actually be able to link up with the likes of Couts and Emi2). Part of the blame on that sits with the manager. But the main issue I think was his decision to make McGinn captain. It's not done us any favours and it's not done McGinn any favours either. I was interested to see that Ashley Young seemed to be doing far more of the captaincy stuff than McGinn against Leeds (talking to the ref about confirmation of why free kicks were awarded, trying to gee up the other players, etc). The only issue is that had we gone for a new manager last summer (2021) then they would have had realistic expectations of a top half finish, had we appointed someone else last November when we were just above the relegation zone then a comfortable mid-table position was acceptable, now I think it will be a struggle to get much improvement until the Jan transfer window due to the imbalance of our midfield and the issues up front. So the expectations are probably closer to a comfortable lower mid-table position keeping clear of the relegation battle. Selling that to the level of manager who can then take us to top half and beyond in the next 2 - 3 seasons is getting more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, Mister_a said: I think we will be close to relegated if Gerrard stays, so I see no problem in people wishing for a loss vs Chelsea, if this hastens his departure and results in a better manager coming along. Even if we aren't in the relegation spots under Gerrard, it is still not good enough. Not just the points per game, but the overall performances, tactical awareness, subs, selections, everything is broken at the moment, and the common denominator is Gerrard. The players look lost, we get to pass it around our backline then look confused when the other team sit back and say 'come on then' and we have literally no idea what to do. We are at risk of losing several of our quality players in the Jan transfer window, just because of Gerrard and his stupid decisions / stubbornness. He obviously doesn't have a clue what he is doing, and the sooner he is gone, the better it will be for our club, and if wishing for a loss hastens that along, then I'm good with that. I obviously don't want us to lose games, but we need to see the bigger picture. If it's a choice of limp along at 1ppg (and falling) for the next however many games until the Board / CEO see the light, or make changes now, get someone in who has a clue about tactics, and support them in Jan to fill the gaps that Gerrard has made in our squad, it's a no brainer for me. I just don't understand how this has dragged on for so long when it's just so apparent what the issue is. Are we? I don't think that there is much prospect of many of our players going to a significantly better club at the moment. Dougie maybe. Emi is our best player but most of the top clubs now have pretty strong keepers in place already - so he wouldn't be a guaranteed starter elsewhere. Boubs is out injured so unlikely to be high on anyone's radar. I can't actually think of anyone else that would be a disaster if they left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, allani said: I was interested to see that Ashley Young seemed to be doing far more of the captaincy stuff than McGinn against Leeds (talking to the ref about confirmation of why free kicks were awarded, trying to gee up the other players, etc). He would have been a more logical choice for captain if it weren't for the fact that, at his age, it wasn't likely he'd be playing full time. They did give him the Club Captain title, which doesn't assume that you'll be on the pitch and says something about his leadership. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister_a Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, allani said: Are we? I don't think that there is much prospect of many of our players going to a significantly better club at the moment. Dougie maybe. Emi is our best player but most of the top clubs now have pretty strong keepers in place already - so he wouldn't be a guaranteed starter elsewhere. Boubs is out injured so unlikely to be high on anyone's radar. I can't actually think of anyone else that would be a disaster if they left. Buendia, Archer to name another two. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, Mister_a said: I think we will be close to relegated if Gerrard stays, so I see no problem in people wishing for a loss vs Chelsea, if this hastens his departure and results in a better manager coming along. Even if we aren't in the relegation spots under Gerrard, it is still not good enough. Not just the points per game, but the overall performances, tactical awareness, subs, selections, everything is broken at the moment, and the common denominator is Gerrard. The players look lost, we get to pass it around our backline then look confused when the other team sit back and say 'come on then' and we have literally no idea what to do. We are at risk of losing several of our quality players in the Jan transfer window, just because of Gerrard and his stupid decisions / stubbornness. He obviously doesn't have a clue what he is doing, and the sooner he is gone, the better it will be for our club, and if wishing for a loss hastens that along, then I'm good with that. I obviously don't want us to lose games, but we need to see the bigger picture. If it's a choice of limp along at 1ppg (and falling) for the next however many games until the Board / CEO see the light, or make changes now, get someone in who has a clue about tactics, and support them in Jan to fill the gaps that Gerrard has made in our squad, it's a no brainer for me. I just don't understand how this has dragged on for so long when it's just so apparent what the issue is. On this point - half the problem is that McGinn wants to be our creative outlet and he isn't good enough and Ollie is far too static when we have the ball. Of course it is the manager's fault for continuing to play them and / or not finding a way to resolve this but I think any incoming manager is going to struggle for a while with this imbalance in the side / weakness with our spine. Would I trust a new manager to fix that more than Gerrard - at the moment that would emphatically be a yes. And I also think fixing that spine will actually see a big improvement in others - particularly Emi2 and Couts as there should be more options for them when they get the ball rather than them having to wait either for our striker to get back onside or for him to make himself available for a quick exchange of passes (and being capable of doing this without losing possession) or make a run into space that doesn't require having to try and thread the ball through 16 defenders. At the beginning of the season I thought our squad was probably capable of somewhere between 10th - 12th. So we are clearly under performing against that - but we need more than just a new manager to really challenge the top half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 7 minutes ago, Mister_a said: Buendia, Archer to name another two. Archer isn't going to be signed by any PL team at the moment. He's not proved himself at the top level yet. Buendia is a decent shout but he's not exactly made an amazing impression when he does get a chance so I can't see many teams in the top half deciding that he will be a big improvement on what they have. I'm not saying that I don't rate either of them (far from it!) and I also think that they could both be really excellent players for us (or another team) playing in the right position, with the right support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, TomC said: He would have been a more logical choice for captain if it weren't for the fact that, at his age, it wasn't likely he'd be playing full time. They did give him the Club Captain title, which doesn't assume that you'll be on the pitch and says something about his leadership. I do hope that we keep Ashley at the club once he hangs his boots up. I know there are many who were upset with the way that he left to go to Man Utd - but I think he's someone who can work really with our younger players and give them footballing advice to aid their development as players. I always thought that one of his best skills is his ability to read the game and figure out how to make the best out of certain situations. Passing that kind of knowledge on to our emerging players would be really valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciggiesnbeer Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 We can worry about the players once we see how they are when coached. All I know is these are very good players who I am delighted to have at the club. They have almost all got worse individually the past 12 months. Thats not a coincidence. I am excited to see how Buendia & Countinho & Ings & Bailey play together once they are given a plan by premier league level coaches and manager. Its going to be great to see. Lets hope is very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 On 01/09/2022 at 11:26, Dillon66 said: Fully agree with you - for all Gerrard's faults (and there are a few) a manager can't legislate for so called professional footballers who can't even do the basics right. The number of 5-10 yard balls that go astray is a joke at this level. People not tracking runners, caught out of position etc......blaming it on tactics is the easy way out for the players. Elite level sportsmen should be taking responsibility for their performances, at the moment its all on the coach and these jokers are getting a free ride. On the flip side - McGinn has been guilty of making too many sloppy short passes, too many stupid cross field floaty passes that are easy to cut out, not tracking his man back, being caught out of position, etc for the best part of 2 seasons. At some point the manager either has to be explaining to him why that is wrong, what he needs to be doing instead or he needs to be dropping him and telling him that until he sorts it out he isn't playing. Instead he made him captain and spent several interviews talking about what an inspiration and important figure he is. So actually I think in certain instances it is both the player's fault (for not applying themselves) and the manager's fault (for not dropping them). I think in some other cases it is much more down to the manager. For example, I do think that our attacking midfielders are struggling because they are receiving the ball in the wrong areas and there aren't enough options for them when they do get the ball. This means that they are trying to do too much and as a result making more mistakes. I don't think changing manager will solve all the problems. I don't think changing all the players will solve them either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, ciggiesnbeer said: We can worry about the players once we see how they are when coached. All I know is these are very good players who I am delighted to have at the club. They have almost all got worse individually the past 12 months. Thats not a coincidence. I am excited to see how Buendia & Countinho & Ings & Bailey play together once they are given a plan by premier league level coaches and manager. Its going to be great to see. Lets hope is very soon. To be fair - a good chunk of the current squad have been with the club for 3 or more season now and during that time we've only really had one excellent 10 match run and a couple of runs of 5 or 6 matches that have been pretty good. Much of our spine for the awful run from Jan 2021 that got Dean sacked is the same as our spine now. I think the problem is that we've replaced players around the edges and not addressed the fact that Emi-Mings-McGinn-Watkins as a spine is not really good enough. Emi is class (although he's probably been more inconsistent this season than when he is at his majestic best). I do think that Mings would / will be much better when being directed by Carlos. But our midfield has been a major issue for almost 3 seasons - signing 1 player was never going to be enough to fix that and now we are relying on a midfield 3 that (or at least 2/3rds of it) hasn't cut it for the best part of 2.5 years. Expecting them to suddenly become amazing under a new manager is - I think - wildly optimistic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 On 01/09/2022 at 10:29, KAZZAM said: The team(chain) is only as strong as its weakest link(Mcginn). Where's my coat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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