The Players: Plenty of Blame to Go Around?

[TomC]

5 minutes ago, allani said:

I was thinking we are 2 or 3 away from competing for 7th / 8th.  Although the fact that Chelsea, West Ham and Leicester are also struggling (some more so than we were) might play into our hands a bit.  I thought we' be competing with Brighton, Wolves and Palace for the positions 9 - 12 at the start of this season.  The fact that West Ham, Leicester and Wolves are all really struggling should have made it a bit easier for us to jump a couple of places.  I just worry that a couple of players who have impressed since Emery arrived have had good spells before - usually followed by 10 games of distinctly meh performances.  It won't be easy to make up 4 or 5 points on some of the teams above us if we get a couple of injuries.  On the other hand, two or three good signings and suddenly being only two good results off Fulham / Chelsea in 7th / 8th definitely brings those positions into reach.

Like I said, I'm thinking top 8 for next season. I think that we dug too big of a hole for a good chance at top 8 this year.

The thing is, someone is always struggling. Among the vast "middle class," a little bit of luck or a couple injuries separates 7th from 15th in any given year. I can't look at anyone else in the middle class and say that they're clear-cut better than us. Look at the pattern over the last 3-4 years. West Ham? 16th-6th-7th-17th. Leicester? 5th-5th-8th-13th. Brighton? 15th-16th-9th-8th. Fulham? Championship-18th-Championship-6th. Palace? 14th-14th-12th-12th. Brentford? Championship-Championship-13th-9th. Wolves? 7th-13th-10th-19th. Newcastle? 13th-12th-11th-3rd. Everton? 12th-10th-16th-18th. Leicester is the only one in that group with consistent top 8 finishes and they're in decline.

Not to mention that 1 or 2 of the top 6 will usually be having a bad year (Chelsea and Liverpool this year, for example).

That's why I think the top 8 is realistic for next year with the current players. A few upgrades will help our chances, and would take us into Newcastle territory where we're clearly on the rise and several top 8 finishes in a row are possible. But to compete for the top 8 for one season when the breaks go our way, that's realistic with what we have now.

Not to mention that we have a better manager than anyone in that group except maybe Newcastle.

 

[Marka Ragnos]

Who's earning their salary, who's underpaid, who's over?

 

If you ask me, Coutinho, Dendoncker (still new, so maybe not), Olsen, Chambers, Sanson, Guibert are money drains.

Emi, Konsa and Luiz seem obviously underpaid -- and maybe McGinn.   

Annuals and weeklies from Sportrac: 

 

2022 Active Roster
Lucas Digne    D    28         £8,500,000    £163,462
Boubacar Kamara    M    0         £7,800,000    £150,000
Philippe Coutinho    M    29         £6,500,000    £125,000
Danny Ings    F    29         £6,240,000    £120,000
Emiliano Martinez    GK    29         £6,240,000    £120,000
Leon Bailey    F    24         £5,200,000    £100,000
Diego Carlos    D    28         £5,200,000    £100,000
Leander Dendoncker    M    26         £4,680,000    £90,000
Matty Cash    D    24         £4,160,000    £80,000
Tyrone Mings    D    28         £4,160,000    £80,000
Robin Olsen    GK    31         £4,160,000    £80,000
Emiliano Buendía    F    25         £3,900,000    £75,000
Douglas Luiz    M    23         £3,900,000    £75,000
Ollie Watkins    F    26         £3,900,000    £75,000
Jacob Ramsey    M    20         £3,640,000    £70,000
Jan Bednarek     D    25         £3,120,000    £60,000
Calum Chambers    D    26         £2,600,000    £50,000
John McGinn    M    27         £2,600,000    £50,000
Morgan Sanson    M    27         £2,496,000    £48,000
Frederic Guilbert    D    27         £2,080,000    £40,000
Ezri Konsa    D    24         £1,560,000    £30,000
Marvelous Nakamba    M    27         £1,560,000    £30,000
Cameron Archer    F    20         £1,040,000    £20,000
Ludwig Augustinsson     D    27         £1,040,000    £20,000
Jed Steer    GK    29         £1,040,000    £20,000  

Edited January 6, 2023 by Marka Ragnos

[PaulC]

59 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Who's earning their salary, who's underpaid, who's over?

 

If you ask me, Coutinho, Dendoncker (still new, so maybe not), Olsen, Chambers, Sanson, Guibert are money drains.

Emi, Konsa and Luiz seem obviously underpaid -- and maybe McGinn.   

Annuals and weeklies from Sportrac: 

 

2022 Active Roster
Lucas Digne    D    28         £8,500,000    £163,462
Boubacar Kamara    M    0         £7,800,000    £150,000
Philippe Coutinho    M    29         £6,500,000    £125,000
Danny Ings    F    29         £6,240,000    £120,000
Emiliano Martinez    GK    29         £6,240,000    £120,000
Leon Bailey    F    24         £5,200,000    £100,000
Diego Carlos    D    28         £5,200,000    £100,000
Leander Dendoncker    M    26         £4,680,000    £90,000
Matty Cash    D    24         £4,160,000    £80,000
Tyrone Mings    D    28         £4,160,000    £80,000
Robin Olsen    GK    31         £4,160,000    £80,000
Emiliano Buendía    F    25         £3,900,000    £75,000
Douglas Luiz    M    23         £3,900,000    £75,000
Ollie Watkins    F    26         £3,900,000    £75,000
Jacob Ramsey    M    20         £3,640,000    £70,000
Jan Bednarek     D    25         £3,120,000    £60,000
Calum Chambers    D    26         £2,600,000    £50,000
John McGinn    M    27         £2,600,000    £50,000
Morgan Sanson    M    27         £2,496,000    £48,000
Frederic Guilbert    D    27         £2,080,000    £40,000
Ezri Konsa    D    24         £1,560,000    £30,000
Marvelous Nakamba    M    27         £1,560,000    £30,000
Cameron Archer    F    20         £1,040,000    £20,000
Ludwig Augustinsson     D    27         £1,040,000    £20,000
Jed Steer    GK    29         £1,040,000    £20,000  

Some of those wages look disproportionate to where they are in the squad 

[Kingman]

surely thats not right 

[Marka Ragnos]

6 minutes ago, Kingman said:

surely thats not right 

Sportrac is a legit operation, but maybe I dialed in something wrong? But it's a little disturbing in spots, innit? 

[ender4]

1 hour ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Who's earning their salary, who's underpaid, who's over?

If you ask me, Coutinho, Dendoncker (still new, so maybe not), Olsen, Chambers, Sanson, Guibert are money drains.

Emi, Konsa and Luiz seem obviously underpaid -- and maybe McGinn. 

Chambers came on a free so that’s why wages are higher. He’s a decent back-up CB and DM.

Luiz signed a new contract so will be over £100k now.

Digne definitely overpaid.

Also overpaid will be some of those on loan where we are still paying a portion of the salary… Wesley & Traore come to mind.

[Kingman]

4 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Sportrac is a legit operation, but maybe I dialed in something wrong? But it's a little disturbing in spots, innit? 

Absolutely, 

I mean which weapon signed this off?.. Lucas Digne    D    28   £8,500,000    £163,462

[Marka Ragnos]

57 minutes ago, PaulC said:

Some of those wages look disproportionate to where they are in the squad 

Just as an aside, I'd add that players may sign the contracts, but the agents and clubs obviously work out the deals. I'd never blame a player for making money, and there's no law that says a higher salary is going to improve a player, obviously. Still, when you think what we're getting, as fans, well, I agree, some of the wages seem out of whack haha! I mean, I'd guesstimate that the average West Midlands worker makes about £800,000 over the course of their entire lifetime. 

[ender4]

15 minutes ago, Kingman said:

surely thats not right 

Which ones do you think are wrong?

Luiz of course because they probably haven’t updated for his new contract.

Olsen is very confusing.

Most of the others seem correct?

[Marka Ragnos]

This one kind of gets me, too. I mean, why aren't we in Seventh? I know, I know. That's naff. It's simplistic. And hey, look at Chelsea. But still ... don't we deserve more from this payroll, or we should reduce something? Something doesn't add up. It's a little scary, too. One would think we need to be careful about our ROIs.
 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Marka Ragnos

[TomC]

2 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said:

 

If you ask me, Coutinho, Dendoncker (still new, so maybe not), Olsen, Chambers, Sanson, Guibert are money drains.

Emi, Konsa and Luiz seem obviously underpaid -- and maybe McGinn.   

Coutinho: Overpaid based on performance here, but not based on what he was paid before he came here. You can argue that we shouldn't have brought him in, but that's what it took.

Donck: A little high but I wouldn't call him a money drain. He's been solid since he got here. Knock about 15% off and he's about where I'd expect compared to the rest of the team.

Olsen: Agreed.

Chambers: Quality cover for the price. He's cheaper than Bednarek and the only players below him who are regulars are McGinn and Konsa. Can't call him a money drain. Should play more.

Sanson and Guilbert: Money drains because we don't use them, but not grossly overpaid. They're near the bottom.

Emi: Not sure which you were referring to. Dibu is pretty well paid for a GK; he wasn't a Copa America and World Cup winner when we signed him. Bueni is a little lower than I expected but not out of range.

Konsa: What a steal. Grossly underpaid.

McGinn: I'm surprised that he's that low, but he wouldn't get much of a raise based on this year's performance.

Players you didn't mention:

Digne: Highest paid player in the squad? No thanks. Worth maybe half that at best.

Mings: Underpaid. Should be ahead of at least 4 players paid more than him.

Kamara: Now we understand why he signed here. We paid. Will probably turn out to be worth it.

I do wonder if Mings and McGinn are lower because they've been here a while and signed long-term contracts before the current round of PL inflation. The last TV contract put a lot more money into the clubs.

 

 

[ender4]

35 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

This one kind of gets me, too. I mean, why aren't we in Seventh? I know, I know. That's naff. It's simplistic. And hey, look at Chelsea. But still ... don't we deserve more from this payroll, or we should reduce something? Something doesn't add up. It's a little scary, too. One would think we need to be careful about our ROIs.
 

That’s crazy - we have the same salary bill as Arsenal!  

[MrBlack]

1 hour ago, ender4 said:

That’s crazy - we have the same salary bill as Arsenal!  

And since we've had a proper manager out form is pretty similar to their's. 

Obviously, we have to overpay to get a player of the same standard to join us vs a similar player that would join Arsenal, or indeed any club in the champions league.

What we need to do is make strides quickly with the investment we've made, or players like Digne, Coutinho, and Kamara will bankrupt us and leave us with nothing to spend thanks to FFP.

It's a tricky balancing act, and to break the mould requires a lot of skill in the transfer market,  a proper manager, and no small amount of luck. 

[Marka Ragnos]

3 hours ago, TomC said:

Coutinho: Overpaid based on performance here, but not based on what he was paid before he came here. You can argue that we shouldn't have brought him in, but that's what it took.

Donck: A little high but I wouldn't call him a money drain. He's been solid since he got here. Knock about 15% off and he's about where I'd expect compared to the rest of the team.

Olsen: Agreed.

Chambers: Quality cover for the price. He's cheaper than Bednarek and the only players below him who are regulars are McGinn and Konsa. Can't call him a money drain. Should play more.

Sanson and Guilbert: Money drains because we don't use them, but not grossly overpaid. They're near the bottom.

Emi: Not sure which you were referring to. Dibu is pretty well paid for a GK; he wasn't a Copa America and World Cup winner when we signed him. Bueni is a little lower than I expected but not out of range.

Konsa: What a steal. Grossly underpaid.

McGinn: I'm surprised that he's that low, but he wouldn't get much of a raise based on this year's performance.

Players you didn't mention:

Digne: Highest paid player in the squad? No thanks. Worth maybe half that at best.

Mings: Underpaid. Should be ahead of at least 4 players paid more than him.

Kamara: Now we understand why he signed here. We paid. Will probably turn out to be worth it.

I do wonder if Mings and McGinn are lower because they've been here a while and signed long-term contracts before the current round of PL inflation. The last TV contract put a lot more money into the clubs.

 

 

Good thinking. Yes, I see I did actually confused the Emilianos haha -- I know who's who but scanned first names too fast. Agreed on both. Kamara does seem so worth it!!! I agree with just about all your explanations, except on Digne -- I think fans are completely wrong about him. Bad day at the office vs. Wolves. But I wish this list didn't require so many explanations. It captures a moment in time, and the present moment, it seems kind of off. That's all I'm really saying..

[TomC]

33 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

I agree with just about all your explanations, except on Digne -- I think fans are completely wrong about him. Bad day at the office vs. Wolves.

I don't think he's that bad and is clearly an upgrade on the 2021-22 version of Targett. But he certainly shouldn't be the highest paid player on the team.

 

[Laughable Chimp]

5 hours ago, ender4 said:

Which ones do you think are wrong?

Luiz of course because they probably haven’t updated for his new contract.

Olsen is very confusing.

Most of the others seem correct?

After doing some digging, I think what happened is Olsen's guaranteed salary is 50k. The extra 30k is bonuses. I'm guessing its appereances bonuses in case he ends up becoming first team keeper for us. Hence 80k on sportrac.

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Laughable Chimp

[Laughable Chimp]

4 hours ago, TomC said:

Coutinho: Overpaid based on performance here, but not based on what he was paid before he came here. You can argue that we shouldn't have brought him in, but that's what it took.

Donck: A little high but I wouldn't call him a money drain. He's been solid since he got here. Knock about 15% off and he's about where I'd expect compared to the rest of the team.

Olsen: Agreed.

Chambers: Quality cover for the price. He's cheaper than Bednarek and the only players below him who are regulars are McGinn and Konsa. Can't call him a money drain. Should play more.

Sanson and Guilbert: Money drains because we don't use them, but not grossly overpaid. They're near the bottom.

Emi: Not sure which you were referring to. Dibu is pretty well paid for a GK; he wasn't a Copa America and World Cup winner when we signed him. Bueni is a little lower than I expected but not out of range.

Konsa: What a steal. Grossly underpaid.

McGinn: I'm surprised that he's that low, but he wouldn't get much of a raise based on this year's performance.

Players you didn't mention:

Digne: Highest paid player in the squad? No thanks. Worth maybe half that at best.

Mings: Underpaid. Should be ahead of at least 4 players paid more than him.

Kamara: Now we understand why he signed here. We paid. Will probably turn out to be worth it.

I do wonder if Mings and McGinn are lower because they've been here a while and signed long-term contracts before the current round of PL inflation. The last TV contract put a lot more money into the clubs.

 

 

Pretty sure Konsa's salary hasn't been updated with his new contract. His newer salary is closer to 70k

Edited January 7, 2023 by Laughable Chimp

[WallisFrizz]

31 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Pretty sure Konsa's salary hasn't been updated with his new contract. His newer salary is closer to 70k

I’m pleased about that, he was getting a really bad deal otherwise. 
 

 

[WallisFrizz]

6 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Just as an aside, I'd add that players may sign the contracts, but the agents and clubs obviously work out the deals. I'd never blame a player for making money, and there's no law that says a higher salary is going to improve a player, obviously. Still, when you think what we're getting, as fans, well, I agree, some of the wages seem out of whack haha! I mean, I'd guesstimate that the average West Midlands worker makes about £800,000 over the course of their entire lifetime. 

Oh footballers wages are completely obscene.  We’re paying Guilbert and Sanson for what exactly? No wonder they don’t want to move.

[TomC]

1 hour ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Pretty sure Konsa's salary hasn't been updated with his new contract. His newer salary is closer to 70k

So that's about 3.6m/year...still cheaper than any of the other starters in the back line, still a good deal.