Steven Gerrard

[weedman]

Some of the criticisms of Gerrard here are well founded, but if you hire a manager mid season, and before the end of that same season you're looking at ppg as anything other than ppg since they took over then its only because your biased and are cherry picking stats to suit your argument. The only people that do that regularly are the Watford owners and look how it's worked out for them 

[sheepyvillian]

On 29/04/2022 at 21:57, hippo said:

Right now there hero is on a managerial practice run with us. If he makes an almighty mess of it - no harm done.

How long as that needle been stuck ? Put a two pence coin on it. That usually works.

[sheepyvillian]

3 minutes ago, weedman said:

Some of the criticisms of Gerrard here are well founded, but if you hire a manager mid season, and before the end of that same season you're looking at ppg as anything other than ppg since they took over then its only because your biased and are cherry picking stats to suit your argument. The only people that do that regularly are the Watford owners and look how it's worked out for them 

Tell them, Weedman, tell them.

[Only2McInallys]

2 hours ago, hippo said:

Hmmmm 

I really don't think Gerrard demonstrates big ambitions - sure it's a high profile big name as a player - but by no means is he a top calibre manager.

I can help the plan is to try and pack the squad with big name players maybe just past their prime - I just don't see it working.

The best villa teams imo have always been built around a team of promising players approaching their prime.

All imo of course.

 

I think about about the best Villa teams I have seen and they had a mix of very experienced players Withe,McGrath,Merson,Townsend mixed with emerging talent.I think that’s what we had wrong in our first season in the Premier league,not enough experience.

I wasn’t a huge fan of appointing Gerrard initially but I feel he needs to have the summer transfer window and preseason to be judged properly.

For me the midfield Mcginn,Luiz axis doesn’t work consistently enough and needs to be addressed.

[Zatman]

11 minutes ago, Only2McInallys said:

 

For me the midfield Mcginn,Luiz axis doesn’t work consistently enough and needs to be addressed.

Sadly cant be addressed when one of them is undroppable in the eyes of management. The other Luiz wont be here next season sadly

[USA_Villa]

Just got back from the game this weekend. It was a whistle stop trip flying from the US on Thursday night, and coming back on Sunday, but it was important to see Deano at Villa park one last time.

My thoughts on the game. It was uninspiring, the atmosphere was flat,  and the performance was decidedly average. Ings coming on changed the game. Until that point I didn't see a lot to choose between the two teams.

Appointing Gerrard was supposed to be for one main reason, to improve performances and ultimately to move up the league. From everything I've seen to date, this has not happened. We have not improved, and  performances are not any better. The differences on Saturday were a Williams slip, and a mistake by the same player not releasing the ball earlier when he's been clipped by Ollie. Other than those two mistakes, there was nothing between the two teams. As I've said previously, we beat poorer teams because we have better players. 

We are a predictable team, and others have worked out how to play against us. I'm concerned because I see something similar to what happened to Sheffield United last year. Once teams have worked you out, and you pretty much don't have a plan B, there's almost no way back. We don't have a player issue, we have a system issue. I'm not convinced we don't have the right players for his system, and suddenly need to spend Millions in the close season. My concern is that the system is flawed, is easily shut down, and other teams have worked out how to completely nullify it.

I'm not convinced this coaching team are good enough after another bang average performance.

BTW, the Villa fans did Deano proud on Saturday. Very respectful, and it bought a lump to my throat. Well done.

[paul514]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Well @Zatman has basically just said we have a title challenging attacking lineup.... So I can see why people are upset. Lol

We should actually be top 4 at minimum.

We do have one of the best collections of forwards in the league…. Doesn’t mean they blend well, doesn’t mean they are played correctly and it doesn’t mean the other 8 players on the pitch don’t matter.

whoever the three upfront would be if we fixed the 8 behind them so it was just right then they would score loads.

coulda woulda shoulda though isn’t it

[briny_ear]

7 minutes ago, USA_Villa said:

Just got back from the game this weekend. It was a whistle stop trip flying from the US on Thursday night, and coming back on Sunday, but it was important to see Deano at Villa park one last time.

My thoughts on the game. It was uninspiring, the atmosphere was flat,  and the performance was decidedly average. Ings coming on changed the game. Until that point I didn't see a lot to choose between the two teams.

Appointing Gerrard was supposed to be for one main reason, to improve performances and ultimately to move up the league. From everything I've seen to date, this has not happened. We have not improved, and  performances are not any better. The differences on Saturday were a Williams slip, and a mistake by the same player not releasing the ball earlier when he's been clipped by Ollie. Other than those two mistakes, there was nothing between the two teams. As I've said previously, we beat poorer teams because we have better players. 

We are a predictable team, and others have worked out how to play against us. I'm concerned because I see something similar to what happened to Sheffield United last year. Once teams have worked you out, and you pretty much don't have a plan B, there's almost no way back. We don't have a player issue, we have a system issue. I'm not convinced we don't have the right players for his system, and suddenly need to spend Millions in the close season. My concern is that the system is flawed, is easily shut down, and other teams have worked out how to completely nullify it.

I'm not convinced this coaching team are good enough after another bang average performance.

BTW, the Villa fans did Deano proud on Saturday. Very respectful, and it bought a lump to my throat. Well done.

I’m not really sure what you have been looking at because under Smith we achieved 0.9 points per game and under Gerrard it has been just over 1.3 points per game. Smith left us in 16th position and we are now 13th.

So in any objective review of the criteria you set out, Gerrard has achieved his goals.

 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

The " 12th Man " seems to not exist anymore.

I'll tell you what, the negativity is draining, not even joking.

It makes it start to become unpleasant to be on the social media Villa pages and forums.

I hope eventually some people realise that their attitude of " Doom " in many facets is a CHOICE ( To wollow in the heartbreak of the events of the summer and start of this season )

Even on TV, you can usually hear the ground buzzing on TV. I'm convinced this was also partially due to Deano being there and it being awkward for certain fans, as theirs have been better atmospheres there even since SG has been in charge.

The easiest thing for people to say will be " It's because we are not inspired ". I think this goes both ways.

If the relentless negativity, is draining to me, as just an armchair fan, I don't want to imagine how it can possibly affect players and staff. 

It's clear as day some people minds are made up, and they are not going to stop until it's poisonous enough for them to get their way.

Fans need to take some sort of responsibility for trying to help their team and/or the feel good factor.

There is genuinely no reason for people to be as ridiculously dramatic as they are being.

Alot of sentiment seems to be based purely.on emotion, and refusal to move on.

It's like the bloke who's broken up with his long term girlfriend, his life has actually gotten better since she's left, he's got a better job, and prospects of even better women but he " Can't live without her ".

Anyway, it then becomes an echo chamber to the points where there noises snowball and I find even myself getting depressed about it all.

I've said on the thread multiple times, the fans are actually depressing me more than the football or my feelings about our future ffs.

Edited May 2, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

13 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

I’m not really sure what you have been looking at because under Smith we achieved 0.9 points per game and under Gerrard it has been just over 1.3 points per game. Smith left us in 16th position and we are now 13th.

So in any objective review of the criteria you set out, Gerrard has achieved his goals.

 

There is no point.

I've realised that Dean Smith fans, are the new Jack Grealish fans, and Steven Gerrard is Mason Mount or Raheem Sterling.

There are no logical arguments you can make which will change anything until they get what they want.

I've got my own concerns, but some of this is downright ridiculous.

Just getting caught up in the same argument cycle and getting nowhere.

They are actively fighting against their own club and don't realise how counter productive it is.

Nothing speeds up the failure desired, like.creating an untenable environment.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Villa_Vids]

I agree with your sentiments @JAMAICAN-VILLAN. 

I have seen Gerrard compared to McLeish, Bruce & Bryan Robson . We are going to be the next Everton etc. Any win or strong performance we have now is brushed under the carpet along with optimism for the future. What's the point to these discussions anymore? People are not willing to concede an inch, even when we win games or there are strong reasons to be hopeful about the future. It feels like some people are actively working against Gerrard's appointment, it is horrible. We are only six months in too. It is not right or fair imo. But what can I do? I respect everybody on this forum, and fair criticism always has my support. 

As for SG. I am viewing Gerrard's tenure through the prism of NSWE's long term goals & objectives, he could improve us and be a stepping stone for our future progress. It is possible. Bruce was. Smith was. If he improves us, which he has showed signs of doing in his short reign, then he has achieved here IMO. The club is in a good place imo.  I believe It is about improving on the previous head coach which results in the club becoming better. That is exciting and enjoyable. For what it is worth - I have faith in SG, I believe he will move us forward again.

[tinker]

I can't understand why people can't see what was wrong with Gerrards appointment, it's baffling to say the least. He's a 'Liverpool legend' managing our club, he will always be a 'Liverpool legend' no matter what he does here. If he does well then hes off to manage Liverpool, how can fans accept that? It's baffling, like we have a bunch of Liverpool fans boys on here. 

It's why the ground is flat and many fans have lost the connection wih the club. 

I just can't buy into it, he needed to be an exceptional manager. No one can watch us play and say he's been exceptional, not even Carragher or any other Liverpool fan could say it. 

[nick76]

8 hours ago, briny_ear said:

@nick76 I have to say you are a master at cherry picking statistics to bolster your rather partial arguments. All these figures you have been quoting about 18 points from 16 games, 11 points from 11 games, etc., appear to be carefully honed to present Gerrard’s achievements in the worst light possible.

Why are you selecting particular sequences of matches in this way? Surely not because they are carefully calibrated to present a false impression of our performance since November?

The only statistics that seem relevant are those for the overall performance since Gerrard took over. Anything else has little justification. 

The actual figures we need to focus on are that we have 30 points from 22 matches under Gerrard.That has pulled us up from a position of 10 points from 11 matches under Smith to 40 points from 33. This is obviously going to be a disappointing season but I don’t think you can blame Gerrard entirely or even mainly for that. If you create a league table of performance since November 19th (when he took control of the team) to the present day, Villa are 9th. We are beaten by Man C, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea, Man U, Newcastle and Wolves, and we have done better than all the rest.

I think we would all have hoped for better and I am sure Steven Gerrard is disappointed that he hasn’t delivered this. But his performance is by no means the disaster you are trying to make out and he certainly has earned another season trying to sort out the issues with our current squad.

You ask if Smith would have turned round his disastrous start to this season if he had stayed? The only thing I have to go on is that without Grealish in the side he consistently achieved about 0.9 points per match, which was his 2021-22 performance when he was sacked. You are asking a question it is impossible to answer but all of the objective evidence suggests we would be scrapping it out with Everton and Leeds right now. Gerrard’s 1.3-1.4 points per match, while not stellar, has at least lifted away from that battle.
 

 

 

Cherry-picking? Looking at recent form? You are having a laugh.  

My comment about 11 games was in reference to somebody saying to me before the Norwich game that Smith 10 point haul was unacceptable and I replied that Gerrard was on currently a run of 11 points in 11 games, that’s not cherry-picking it’s rebutting an argument.

Commentators, analysts and fans are always looking at current form.  League tables show the last six game form.  Commentators are always looking at form since the turn of the year.  Villa fans constantly talk last year at various stages throughout that year 2021 form and dismissed being able to talk about season form.

No it’s not cherry-picking it’s looking at stats that some don’t like to confront and unhappy to realise.

Yes, include Gerrard from start stat and I’ve discussed that many times but you can’t dismiss current form recent and during 2022 because it’s poor.  If you think we are playing as well as we did those first six games then I have a bridge to sell you.  If you think we have had a good second half of the season I have some beans to sell you. If you think Gerrard has done a lot more than the bare minimum required then I’m glad you are happy.

I’m not advocating for Gerrard to be sacked, I think he should get at least early into next season but I’m going to continue to analyse his performances and results because he was brought in to take us to the next level, which includes coaching of current players, not just buying players.  Most of the current squad will also be here next season even if a busy summer.  I’m not seeing much improvement so far but I’m told the magical summer will change that.

It is funny how me discussing current form seems a big no no to some because it doesn’t fit their narrative.

I’ve been called a troll, moving the goal posts and that I’m cherry picking yet the only stat out of many many commonly used stats is including those first six games is actually positive and that section is widely known for managers as a new manager bounce.

Edited May 2, 2022 by nick76

[Davkaus]

11 minutes ago, tinker said:

 If he does well then hes off to manage Liverpool, how can fans accept that?

Because he'd have to do incredibly well to deserve the Liverpool job, and I don't think there's a manager since Graham Taylor who went on to a better job than Villa. In fact, forget "better job", managing Villa has pretty much ended the top flight careers of many of our former managers.

It'd be nice for one to do so well they're an attractive acquisition of a top club for once. bit of a novelty. 

[IrishVilla10]

15 minutes ago, tinker said:

I can't understand why people can't see what was wrong with Gerrards appointment, it's baffling to say the least. He's a 'Liverpool legend' managing our club, he will always be a 'Liverpool legend' no matter what he does here. If he does well then hes off to manage Liverpool, how can fans accept that? It's baffling, like we have a bunch of Liverpool fans boys on here. 

It's why the ground is flat and many fans have lost the connection wih the club. 

I just can't buy into it, he needed to be an exceptional manager. No one can watch us play and say he's been exceptional, not even Carragher or any other Liverpool fan could say it. 

For Gerrard to get the Liverpool job he’ll have to have us in Europe, that’s the reality of it. If he doesn’t succeed here his profile drops by half. I’m starting to get sick of the Liverpool links for sure, and questions about them in our press conferences. But he can’t use us as a stepping stone unless he’s done very well and I’m fine with that, it benefits both parties 

[jacketspuds]

11 minutes ago, tinker said:

I can't understand why people can't see what was wrong with Gerrards appointment, it's baffling to say the least. He's a 'Liverpool legend' managing our club, he will always be a 'Liverpool legend' no matter what he does here. If he does well then hes off to manage Liverpool, how can fans accept that? It's baffling, like we have a bunch of Liverpool fans boys on here. 

It's why the ground is flat and many fans have lost the connection wih the club. 

I just can't buy into it, he needed to be an exceptional manager. No one can watch us play and say he's been exceptional, not even Carragher or any other Liverpool fan could say it. 

If he does well he will be off to Liverpool in 2026, at the earliest. Can’t see Klopp getting the sack or quitting before then.

If Gerrard is still here in 4 years because he is successful then I really don’t understand the problem. We have extremely ambitious owners, and for them to stick with a manager for that long would mean that we are achieving their goals, which for me would be challenging for Top 6.

But, it’s a problem because he might be off to Liverpool in the future. I honestly couldn’t give a shit.

[nick76]

8 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

There is no point.

I've realised that Dean Smith fans, are the new Jack Grealish fans, and Steven Gerrard is Mason Mount or Raheem Sterling.

There are no logical arguments you can make which will change anything until they get what they want.

I've got my own concerns, but some of this is downright ridiculous.

Just getting caught up in the same argument cycle and getting nowhere.

They are actively fighting against their own club and don't realise how counter productive it is.

Nothing speeds up the failure desired, like.creating an untenable environment.

 

 

The problem JV is that the name calling is coming from the people that are trying to be really positive and not people like me that are trying to discuss performances and current form.  As as I mention that I get called a name, say we can only look at full tenure or we have to wait until Xmas.  This is a forum for discussion yet discussing SG seems not allowed unless positive.

You say there are no logical arguments yet I am presenting them and I would argue it’s irrational to only look at one stat being his total tenure because it hides current form.

Whose fighting the club? I go to the games, packed houses every game and support the team and then come on here to discuss.  In fact wanting the betterment of the team isn’t fighting the club it’s looking to improve the club.  I’d argue accepting current form and hiding behind a stat that includes the first six games is fighting the club because you aren’t accepting current reality as the club continues through poor form and your accepting it rather than engaging in discussion like a forum and fans should.

Finally

Quote

Nothing speeds up the failure desired, like.creating an untenable environment.

I argue that nothing speeds up failure than not facing reality and letting things go on unquestioned.  History has shown us that in many ways of society.

Some people won’t agree with me debating but I deserve some respect for arguing my views (not saying you) because I say my argument, back up with stats and if people want to discuss I will but a few don’t want to discuss because it doesn’t suit their narrative.

Edited May 2, 2022 by nick76

[nick76]

7 hours ago, USA_Villa said:

Just got back from the game this weekend. It was a whistle stop trip flying from the US on Thursday night, and coming back on Sunday, but it was important to see Deano at Villa park one last time.

My thoughts on the game. It was uninspiring, the atmosphere was flat,  and the performance was decidedly average. Ings coming on changed the game. Until that point I didn't see a lot to choose between the two teams.

Appointing Gerrard was supposed to be for one main reason, to improve performances and ultimately to move up the league. From everything I've seen to date, this has not happened. We have not improved, and  performances are not any better. The differences on Saturday were a Williams slip, and a mistake by the same player not releasing the ball earlier when he's been clipped by Ollie. Other than those two mistakes, there was nothing between the two teams. As I've said previously, we beat poorer teams because we have better players. 

We are a predictable team, and others have worked out how to play against us. I'm concerned because I see something similar to what happened to Sheffield United last year. Once teams have worked you out, and you pretty much don't have a plan B, there's almost no way back. We don't have a player issue, we have a system issue. I'm not convinced we don't have the right players for his system, and suddenly need to spend Millions in the close season. My concern is that the system is flawed, is easily shut down, and other teams have worked out how to completely nullify it.

I'm not convinced this coaching team are good enough after another bang average performance.

BTW, the Villa fans did Deano proud on Saturday. Very respectful, and it bought a lump to my throat. Well done.

Good post

[The_Steve]

31 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Because he'd have to do incredibly well to deserve the Liverpool job, and I don't think there's a manager since Graham Taylor who went on to a better job than Villa. In fact, forget "better job", managing Villa has pretty much ended the top flight careers of many of our former managers.

It'd be nice for one to do so well they're an attractive acquisition of a top club for once. bit of a novelty. 

Exactly. He doesn’t owe us anything beyond what he’s committed towards. He could be here for 5-10 years or less. Ultimately, if he leaves for bigger things we’ve gotten something right. If not, we move on also. The club will always be bigger than any manager or player. 

[tom_avfc]

7 hours ago, briny_ear said:

I’m not really sure what you have been looking at because under Smith we achieved 0.9 points per game and under Gerrard it has been just over 1.3 points per game. Smith left us in 16th position and we are now 13th.

So in any objective review of the criteria you set out, Gerrard has achieved his goals.

 

Given that Smith had 11 games as opposed to Gerrard’s 22 this season it’s a bit more nuanced than simple league table positions.

One way to look at it would be to compare the relative performance of those 11 games with the reverse fixtures. Smith took 10 points from the first 11 games of this season. Gerrard took 7 points from the same 11 teams with only the win over Southampton bettering the result from first time around.

Beating the likes of Leeds and Norwich isn’t really anything to write home about. I’m not massively against Gerrard and I hope he does well but to suggest he’s doing a better job than Smith was despite losing to practically every team that we lost to under Smith is by no means a statement of fact as you’re trying to make it out to be.

Add in arguments for whether the style of football has improved, whether Gerrard has had fewer injuries and the outlay on expensive players in January and theres far more to the debate than a simple points comparison over games against different opposition will ever achieve.