Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Davkaus]

I'd be reluctant to move Mings up front without relinquishing him of his defensive duties. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Like that team. 

Still not sure on Sanson though. We've not seen him a lot really. 

Yeh I’m probably clutching straws a bit with hoping he comes good but he did impress me in the short time he played against Chelsea. 

[Keener window-cleaner]

2 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I think when and if we can finally see this team and shape with the odd alterations in personnel we’ll be fine. 
 

                Emi

cash Konsa Mings Targett 

   Mcginn  Luiz Sanson 

Beundia. Mings/Watkins  Bailey 

I think this would be the strongest team:

                        Emi

Cash    Konsa    Mings   Targett

            McGinn     Luiz

Traoré        Buendia         Bailey

                      Ings

Watkins pushing Ings for the starting spot or comes in instead of Traoré or Bailey when they are not available.

Sanson pushing McGinn and Luiz.

Tuanzebe back up at CB.

2 youngsters on the bench.

The rest can be updated with better quality players. Most pressingly a top class CM. Then a Back up GK and a LB.

[nick76]

20 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

It did feel like the nervous energy of nearly 40k  Villa fans seemed to be shared by the players.  We would have won that game last season. It’s a strange one.

I don’t think there was nerves really.  Sitting in the Upper Holte, apart from the Traore run it felt a fairly comfortable game until about the 80th minute.  Chess game first half but I didn’t feel threatened, those around me were just talking about if we can create something the game was there for the taking.  Second half, once we took the lead and then the second it seemed comfortable and we were taking the piss with “2-0 on your big day out” and “are you West Brom in disguise”.  Then it changed in a split second really (it felt like that) and then the nerves came in and ten minutes later it was over.  For me, for most of the game, it was one of the least nervous crowds recently.

Edited October 18, 2021 by nick76

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

I think this would be the strongest team:

                        Emi

Cash    Konsa    Mings   Targett

            McGinn     Luiz

Traoré        Buendia         Bailey

                      Ings

Watkins pushing Ings for the starting spot or comes in instead of Traoré or Bailey when they are not available.

Sanson pushing McGinn and Luiz.

Tuanzebe back up at CB.

2 youngsters on the bench.

The rest can be updated with better quality players. Most pressingly a top class CM. Then a Back up GK and a LB.

I like this too but just wondering if it leaves us a little light in terms of winning the midfield battle. I do like Buendia in the hole though, he played it brilliantly on Saturday.

[villalad21]

4 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

I think this would be the strongest team:

                        Emi

Cash    Konsa    Mings   Targett

            McGinn     Luiz

Traoré        Buendia         Bailey

                      Ings

Watkins pushing Ings for the starting spot or comes in instead of Traoré or Bailey when they are not available.

Sanson pushing McGinn and Luiz.

Tuanzebe back up at CB.

2 youngsters on the bench.

The rest can be updated with better quality players. Most pressingly a top class CM. Then a Back up GK and a LB.

I don't know. 

In this shape it would force Mcginn deeper and that's not his game. 

I do thi k 4-3-3 with no number 10 is the way to go. 

[Keener window-cleaner]

2 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I like this too but just wondering if it leaves us a little light in terms of winning the midfield battle. I do like Buendia in the hole though, he played it brilliantly on Saturday.

Yeah, against the best teams we can play a mf instead of Buendia. Though Buendia I think is quite hard working as well, in the last game he also back the ball at a couple of times in our own half, in the games before he seemed to lose the ball to easily, but I think he can do more of the defensive duties even in the hole than let's say compared to Barkley last season.

[Keener window-cleaner]

2 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

I don't know. 

In this shape it would force Mcginn deeper and that's not his game. 

I do thi k 4-3-3 with no number 10 is the way to go. 

Agree with that, and it also goes against what I have been going on about that Luiz is best at playing as the lone holding midfielder. On the whole the 4-3-3 would be difficult to field Buendia, Bailey, Ings/Watkins and Traoré at the same time though, so that's why I went for the 4-2-3-1. I do know who of that bunch you would like to leave out though  

[villalad21]

2 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

Agree with that, and it also goes against what I have been going on about that Luiz is best at playing as the lone holding midfielder. On the whole the 4-3-3 would be difficult to field Buendia, Bailey, Ings/Watkins and Traoré at the same time though, so that's why I went for the 4-2-3-1. I do know who of that bunch you would like to leave out though  

We would have good players off the bench though! 

[Delphinho123]

I’d really like to see a midfield three of Luiz, Sanson and McGinn given a few games.

 

[Woody1000]

3 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

I’d really like to see a midfield three of Luiz, Sanson and McGinn given a few games.

 

I think it will if Sanson can stay fit for a prolonged period.

[fruitvilla]

5 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

I’d really like to see a midfield three of Luiz, Sanson and McGinn given a few games.

I would like to see Sansom for a few games.

[mykeyb]

3 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

Yep and add to that pens, it isn’t sustainable.

I long gave Bruce pelters even when he was winning games and “successful” because I said it wasn’t sustainable and so it proved. His entire approach was entirely dependant upon player individual brilliance.

Now I’m not for one minute comparing Bruce and Smith, they are miles apart but there is a valid point to be made.

Smith throughout his tenure has shown himself to be a far superior coach to Bruce but he has also in every season struggled without Grealish. That is a massive concern to me and has been for some time.

So far this season we’ve struggled to create and to an extent that was to be expected post Grealish. People will also point to player absence and again it is a valid point, to a degree.

However people need to be more objective and look at how we are playing, the lack of a coherent system, of effective patterns of play and that isn’t creating chances.

It isn’t possible to sustain a top 10 place with the chances we are creating over a season or even half a season. Sure you will get statistical freaks like Newcastle that season under Pardew but it never lasts.

Teams will analyse out stet pieces and will reduce their effectiveness, we have to start creating more chances in open play.

I don’t think we’ve really played well yet this season, we had a purple patch against Everton where Bailey changed things so perhaps that is a taste of things to come but we were terrible first half. We were playing a weak Everton side as well if people want to talk about injuries.

I think we look every bit a mid table side so far and I think progress this season looks unlikely. That is worrying come the summer when it comes to retaining players and I think it could be a problem for Smith.

We all know what he has achieved so far, it doesn’t need trotting out every time people question the present or future. In football the past is rarely a factor in peoples futures.

Things need to improve or they will get worse because as you say the current way isn’t sustainable.

I personally feel Smith is going to come under a lot of pressure this season. I think it is something like 7 wins in 21 since New Year, that should alarm everyone.

Spot on

[TrentVilla]

15 hours ago, Woody1000 said:

I think it will if Sanson can stay fit for a prolonged period.

Does 20 minutes count?

[Woody1000]

4 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

Does 20 minutes count?

Perhaps Dean thought there was too much time left in the game to bring him off the bench last Saturday?

[TRO]

On 18/10/2021 at 03:42, TomC said:

Now that I've watched the whole Wolves match...strangely...I'm beginning to warm up to 3-5-2 a bit. It's still not my first choice, but now that I understand how we run it, I see its possibilities a bit better. A few observations...

Nothing about the three goals we gave up had anything to do with the formation itself. They resulted from giving up the ball cheaply (one of our biggest problems right now) and mental lapses on defense (our other biggest problem).

You need Buendia to make it work. We looked so much dangerous before he went off. There's not enough creativity among Ramsey, Dougie, and McGinn to play them as the central 3. After Saturday, I don't think anyone can claim that Buendia can't play in the centre. He's dangerous every time he gets the ball. (I can't wait to see an extended run with both Buendia and Bailey in the side.) If I have any criticism, it's that we didn't get the ball to him enough. I saw him put up his hand to call for the ball a few times when he was wide open but instead a teammate went for goal. If/when you bring Ramsey back, put him in to give Dougie or McGinn a break.

People complain that Watkins and Ings haven't formed a partnership, but I'm not sure that Deano means for them to. You rarely see them in the box at the same time. It's not like one of them is the traditional big target man who knocks down the ball for the other forward. One of them goes wide, the other stays in the box. And either one can pop up on either wing. In a sense, it's not that different than how we played with a 4-2-3-1. Deano likes to have two players out on the wing and a central attacking midfielder to give them an outlet. Last year, before Barkley got hurt and became useless, you'd see Grealish and Targett (i.e. the left attacker of the 3 and the overlapping fullback) on the left with Barkley (the centre of the 3) as an outlet, or Traore and Cash on the right with Barkley as an outlet. Saturday, depending on which striker went to which wing, you might see Watkins/Ings and Targett on the left with Buendia as an outlet, or Watkins/Ings and Cash on the right with Buendia as an outlet.

It's interesting how we press...it's neither 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 in transition. It's almost a 4-2-4 or 4-1-5. Generally, both forwards, the most forward of the centre three (e.g. Buendia), and either one or both of the wing-back and DM on the ball side (e.g. Targett and Dougie) join the press. The weak side DM retreats to protect the back line. The weak side wing back retreats to the defensive line immediately, giving us 4 in the back line. On one hand, this gives us a strong press. On the other hand, if they break the press, they can waltz to deep in our end without much resistance.

Assuming Buendia is in, the biggest flaw isn't misusing our attacking players...it's the defense. I'm not sure we have a third centre back who's good enough. Tuanzebe had a bad mental lapse for the third goal and, more importantly, his passing is suspect. Furthermore, when you're in transition to attack, and if you're circulating the ball among the back line with only three players across the back instead of four, it leaves a lot more distance between them and it's easier for the other side to press. Wolves caused problems when they pressed more.

 

I too have no anxiety with that formation...I think the formations are horses for courses.

However, my simply mind says when the full backs, who are now wing backs are too far up field, the one centre back drops off to cover, if a long diagonal ball is played in to the area......when Podence crossed that ball, only Danny Ings was anywhere near him, and the back post ugly head was reared again.....wide open to marauding raiders, with a physical intent of bungling the ball over the line.....Burnley, west brom in the play offs.

Playing properly, we should have caught them on the counter and buried them.

Players have to be alert to cover and cover with gusto, not half hearted late arrival....like "its not my real position"

If you watch the video that Hippo put on Aston Villa v Middlebrough......my observation was, errors, yes...but everyone was at it an fired up.

Mistakes will always happen, but our organisation, composure and intensity, must improve.....and we must not be steamrollered like that.

 

[thunderball]

I think the 3-5-2 is dead, for now at least. We conceded fewer goals and created more chances last year in a 4-3-3, and with Bailey and Traore, as well as Buendia now available, surely we should explore options of getting them involved in lieu of Tuenzebe (who is not yet making a case for his purchase at present).

EIther way you look at this, its been a VERY disjointed start to the season, so hopefully with everyone, including Sanson, coming back into contention, we should see the pattern of play settle and players improving individually and collectively.

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 minute ago, thunderball said:

I think the 3-5-2 is dead, for now at least. We conceded fewer goals and created more chances last year in a 4-3-3, and with Bailey and Traore, as well as Buendia now available, surely we should explore options of getting them involved in lieu of Tuenzebe (who is not yet making a case for his purchase at present).

EIther way you look at this, its been a VERY disjointed start to the season, so hopefully with everyone, including Sanson, coming back into contention, we should see the pattern of play settle and players improving individually and collectively.

I think we will see this in time. Way too early to panic in my opinion. 

[TomC]

On 18/10/2021 at 05:43, villalad21 said:

Didn't we just hire a set piece coach?

We conceded 3 goals from set pieces against Wolves. Not a good look for him.

The free kick was a freak thing. The other two goals didn't come directly from the corners. They were mental lapses that could just easily have happened in open play.

 

[TomC]

7 hours ago, hippo said:

Agree - but imo DS has strayed from the basics. Put your best 11 on the pitch.

 

I disagree entirely. Does Man City put the same 11 on the pitch every week? No. You have to adjust tactics based on the other team. You have to rotate to give players a rest. That's the advantage of a deep squad.