TRO Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 1 hour ago, hippo said: When did players signalling they want to come off become a thing ? I wonder if players ever signalled to Ron Saunders or Brian Clough that they wanted to be subbed ? In the 70s same 11players , played 3 times a week ! I despair at the modern game at times ! 14 players to win the league....it will never be repeated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 7 hours ago, Eastie said: I’d go for that team but with ings as striker , not ollie Yeah, I can live with that. Kind of 50/50 for me. Good to have options, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanpablosaliceband Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 When the dust settles, this is how I see our team come the end of the season. Martinez Cash Konsa Mings Targett Luiz / Sanson McGinn / Sanson Buendia / Sanson Bailey Watkins Ings That back four with Martinez has already proven itself capable of performing well at this level. Was it 15 clean sheets last season? I actually think the five at the back has led to subconscious complacency from the central three that one of the other two can get them out of jail if needed and has lessened the do or die defending we need from Konsa and Mings. I think we are also seeing our central three with too much possession and an over reliance to start our attacks. See Tuanzebe misplaced pass to Traore’s first half missed chance. Our wing backs are also being overlapped too easily with the narrow midfield and two up front. And the theory of one of the central three defenders stepping out to cover just hasn’t been working in my view. Again, Tuanzebe had several clangers stepping out on the right in the second half yesterday. With Bailey and Watkins playing slightly wider and deeper roles, I think they can provide the cover for Cash and Targett, whose starting positions will also now be deeper. Watkins has the pace and work rate to do this role and Bailey certainly has the pace (don’t know enough about his work rate yet). Some will say our midfield will get overrun in this formation but it’s similar numbers in midfield to what we have had all season, including yesterday. Again, with Bailey and Watkins slightly deeper and high work rate from Buendia with the two behind, I think our midfield would be ok defensively (or as good as it can be with the players we have). I also think this line up gives us better balance going forward, more possession and more front foot football. Ings and Watkins don’t seem to be linking up centrally (I can’t remember seeing one pass to the other yet this season) so eventually I think we need to move one wide or to the bench. But I think this option gets our best players on the pitch while keeping a decent shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 1 minute ago, tomav84 said: brighton seem to be flavour of the month on here for some bizarre reason, as the team we should aspire to be. can't wait to **** stuff them and shut a few up. I can't see us stuffing anyone the way we are playing at the moment. Hope we revert back to 4-3-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 1 minute ago, villalad21 said: I can't see us stuffing anyone the way we are playing at the moment. Hope we revert back to 4-3-3 Whilst I prefer 4-3-3 it wouldn’t have prevented yesterday. They forgot the basics of defending set pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Whilst I prefer 4-3-3 it wouldn’t have prevented yesterday. They forgot the basics of defending set pieces. Well yes but we might have kept the ball better and controlled the game more in a 4-3-3 system. Seem very sloppy on the ball in this shape, and Ings, Watkins are just not working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farlz Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 I very much expect when Bailey/Traore are back it'll be a 442/4231 with Ings and Watkins still. I don't see Smith dropping either of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 Now that I've watched the whole Wolves match...strangely...I'm beginning to warm up to 3-5-2 a bit. It's still not my first choice, but now that I understand how we run it, I see its possibilities a bit better. A few observations... Nothing about the three goals we gave up had anything to do with the formation itself. They resulted from giving up the ball cheaply (one of our biggest problems right now) and mental lapses on defense (our other biggest problem). You need Buendia to make it work. We looked so much dangerous before he went off. There's not enough creativity among Ramsey, Dougie, and McGinn to play them as the central 3. After Saturday, I don't think anyone can claim that Buendia can't play in the centre. He's dangerous every time he gets the ball. (I can't wait to see an extended run with both Buendia and Bailey in the side.) If I have any criticism, it's that we didn't get the ball to him enough. I saw him put up his hand to call for the ball a few times when he was wide open but instead a teammate went for goal. If/when you bring Ramsey back, put him in to give Dougie or McGinn a break. People complain that Watkins and Ings haven't formed a partnership, but I'm not sure that Deano means for them to. You rarely see them in the box at the same time. It's not like one of them is the traditional big target man who knocks down the ball for the other forward. One of them goes wide, the other stays in the box. And either one can pop up on either wing. In a sense, it's not that different than how we played with a 4-2-3-1. Deano likes to have two players out on the wing and a central attacking midfielder to give them an outlet. Last year, before Barkley got hurt and became useless, you'd see Grealish and Targett (i.e. the left attacker of the 3 and the overlapping fullback) on the left with Barkley (the centre of the 3) as an outlet, or Traore and Cash on the right with Barkley as an outlet. Saturday, depending on which striker went to which wing, you might see Watkins/Ings and Targett on the left with Buendia as an outlet, or Watkins/Ings and Cash on the right with Buendia as an outlet. It's interesting how we press...it's neither 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 in transition. It's almost a 4-2-4 or 4-1-5. Generally, both forwards, the most forward of the centre three (e.g. Buendia), and either one or both of the wing-back and DM on the ball side (e.g. Targett and Dougie) join the press. The weak side DM retreats to protect the back line. The weak side wing back retreats to the defensive line immediately, giving us 4 in the back line. On one hand, this gives us a strong press. On the other hand, if they break the press, they can waltz to deep in our end without much resistance. Assuming Buendia is in, the biggest flaw isn't misusing our attacking players...it's the defense. I'm not sure we have a third centre back who's good enough. Tuanzebe had a bad mental lapse for the third goal and, more importantly, his passing is suspect. Furthermore, when you're in transition to attack, and if you're circulating the ball among the back line with only three players across the back instead of four, it leaves a lot more distance between them and it's easier for the other side to press. Wolves caused problems when they pressed more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 7 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: I’d say the issue would be the players if it’s individual basic mistakes costing us. So yeh, recruitment. The thing is how many goals did we concede from set pieces or second phase set pieces the whole of last season? I can’t remember that many which means it’s not a fundamental problem as it’s the same players. It’s not something that we’ve struggled with this season either. Saturday really was out of character in my opinion. But if it is something that we have not struggled with before then that would surely suggest coaching? Maybe our back five just need more time playing as a back 5. Other than this season, I think the only time we played back 5 was when we were away to Burnley and Wes and Heaton got their injuries. If I recall correctly we played 2 or 3 games with 3 CBs then and that Burnley game was Jan 1st 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 I don't see the point of playing a back 5, especially as the fixtures ease. It would be one thing if the 3rd CB was some expert ball player who could carry the ball into midfield, but neither Hause nor Tuanzebe are much for that. Making room in the side for an average 3rd CB over better threat from wide areas seems completely counter-productive to me. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I don't see the point of playing a back 5, especially as the fixtures ease. It would be one thing if the 3rd CB was some expert ball player who could carry the ball into midfield, but neither Hause nor Tuanzebe are much for that. Making room in the side for an average 3rd CB over better threat from wide areas seems completely counter-productive to me. Not a fan either, it doesnt even make us look more solid. Only things I can think of is Tuanzebe has a clause in his deal or its a Maxphee idea Edited October 18, 2021 by Zatman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 i think the 5 at the back is purely to accommodate the width coming from cash and targett which is purely to accommodate the lack of fit wingers that we have as soon as traore is fit let alone bailey i think it will be dropped hopefully we go el ghazi and traore vs arsenal but traore is probably another that is fit enough for the bench but not fit enough for 90 minutes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 1 minute ago, villa4europe said: i think the 5 at the back is purely to accommodate the width coming from cash and targett which is purely to accommodate the lack of fit wingers that we have as soon as traore is fit let alone bailey i think it will be dropped hopefully we go el ghazi and traore vs arsenal but traore is probably another that is fit enough for the bench but not fit enough for 90 minutes Traore is injured again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 10 hours ago, Dave-R said: I'd say your right to an extent but if the players who are coming on are not doing all they can then what can a coach do. Let's face it we've been through this many a time before where our players look below there opponent. Coming on and playing like they did doesn't dissolve those players from blame and they all from Head Coach down to the players collectively have to say "hold on we massively dropped the ball here and we got it way to wrong" Our squad is capable of much we know that, yet when they start cocking up, they cock up big and make themselves look like the leagues amateurs. Dropping 3 goals in 15 minutes makes me want to scream at them, they did wonderfully till the first then Wolves just rallied and rallied. If there was an example of Shock and awe, that wolves match was it, it happened all in 15 minutes. One thing I will say against Smith is I know he wants to keep on cracking for more goals and to go and win the match. I mean come on really, if it means we drop all 3 points and let 3 goals when we've score 2 goals and lose in that 15 min shit show, then use common sense. I'm afraid smarter brains must prevail and its obvious go protect the points and change it to suit us. I'm sure if Smith had of pulled it off with his substitutes we would not be all here tearing the team and the staff to bits, we'd be singing his praise. We just won't ever get to Europe if Smith doesn't start behaving smarter when we're in a winning position or make a smarter choice regardless of his favorites. I don't think Axel and Young should be on the pitch, but they will be put on again and somewhere cost us again. I think if we're winning and comfortable then then defence all of a sudden starts being harassed, add extra security to the defence, don't go chasing more goals. I admire the way he chases games down win, lose or draw but for a club that's still ticking on and trying to be better sometimes a game we're winning to then keep going and going to put a game out of sight isn't always the best course of action. Pressure, that last 15 mins where did all the pressure go, its like we just changed our tune and stopped running at Wolves. We just became way to passive familiar sight because we become relaxed after scoring, sit off then become so passive that it effects out chasing down of the ball. For eighty mins our persistent movement of multiple players crowding Wolves was lovely then one goal went in, another and then the winner and not once did our lads try to change there tune in a 15 minute gap. I really think swapping Luiz and Buendia for Ramsey and Nkamba tells you all you need to know I'm not buying that players "signalling" to come off. If player wants to come off the pitch after an hour , playing a local derby in front of 42k - I'd be questioning his attitude / application to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, hippo said: I really think swapping Luiz and Buendia for Ramsey and Nkamba tells you all you need to know I'm not buying that players "signalling" to come off. If player wants to come off the pitch after an hour , playing a local derby in front of 42k - I'd be questioning his attitude / application to be honest. One of them just returned from a long flight from Venezuela, the only Brazil player to play this weekend in the Premier League 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) Five at the back came about to stop Chelsea, we put in a good performance so stuck with it, and then got a few good results, so was hard to change it after that because why would want to change a winning team. But we've had a couple of bad results it will be easier to change back to 433 or some variation of it. Edited October 18, 2021 by useless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Zatman said: Traore is injured again then expect to see again then unfortunately i dont think we're playing this formation because smith likes it, we're playing it because he hasnt got traore, bailey or trezeguet and hasnt had buendia for most of it he could play el ghazi and philogene bidace, could play young or buendia there, could move watkins out to the left...but would we better? its got to be close to a yes by now Edited October 18, 2021 by villa4europe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 30 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I don't see the point of playing a back 5, especially as the fixtures ease. It would be one thing if the 3rd CB was some expert ball player who could carry the ball into midfield, but neither Hause nor Tuanzebe are much for that. Making room in the side for an average 3rd CB over better threat from wide areas seems completely counter-productive to me. I think the performance against Chelsea has swayed the decision to play 3 CBs. We performed really well and looked good. It was the best 3-0 loss we have ever had. I think Smith may be clutching at straws hoping to see that performance again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAnty Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 33 minutes ago, villa4europe said: i think the 5 at the back is purely to accommodate the width coming from cash and targett which is purely to accommodate the lack of fit wingers that we have as soon as traore is fit let alone bailey i think it will be dropped hopefully we go el ghazi and traore vs arsenal but traore is probably another that is fit enough for the bench but not fit enough for 90 minutes No its not. Smith said it was because we were to predictable playing his other formations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted October 18, 2021 Share Posted October 18, 2021 6 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: I think the performance against Chelsea has swayed the decision to play 3 CBs. We performed really well and looked good. It was the best 3-0 loss we have ever had. I think Smith may be clutching at straws hoping to see that performance again. I think there may be an element of truth to this, which should be tempered by how poor Chelsea have looked in many games this season. They're a quality team, there's no denying that, and they're grinding out results, but they got played off the pitch by Brentford, and it took some very late goals to beat a ten man Southampton. They're top, so I can see why we wanted to take some positives from it, but we shouldn't be taking too much from that It did also work well against Man Unitd, but, well, Ole's at the wheel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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