Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Rightdm00]

8 hours ago, IrishVilla10 said:

 

It's so obvious how unbalanced we are whenever we aren't in the diamond and yet Steven goes back to it over and over again. No doubt versus West Ham we will be back with two strikers and Coutinho or Buendia behind. 

The diamond is even that great but it's leagues better than his double 10 system. Which will never work without a massive upgrade in midfield and at CB. 

[Mic09]

I wonder, if we were to sign a top CM, like a Newcastle Bruno, and drop McGinn, would be all of a sudden be a real force?

[duke313]

1 minute ago, Mic09 said:

I wonder, if we were to sign a top CM, like a Newcastle Bruno, and drop McGinn, would be all of a sudden be a real force?

Not unless the whole system is changed as well.  

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

I do think ONE strong CM beside Kamara makes a world of difference and the " system " more workable to be fair 

What's funny is that last season, I remember us getting pumped and exposed on the wings in one game due to the Fullbacks being to far advanced.

Next game, the full backs were more disciplined, we performed well, and won.

So I don't see why we can't do the same now, it's like we're not learning.

Also seems, as much as people don't necessarily favour the 4 - 3 - 1 - 2 with Ings and Ollie, it's where our best performances have come from.

In hindsight, it's probably what we should have gone with again.

Edited August 23, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[IrishVilla10]

8 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I do think ONE strong CM beside Kamara makes a world of difference and the " system " more workable to be fair 

What's funny is that last season, I remember us getting pumped and exposed on the wings in one game due to the Fullbacks being to far advanced.

Next game, the full backs were more disciplined, we performed well, and won.

So I don't see why we can't do the same now, it's like we're not learning.

Also seems, as much as people don't necessarily favour the 4 - 3 - 1 - 2 with Ings and Ollie, it's where our best performances have come from.

In hindsight, it's probably what we should have gone with again.

It has to be a formation change and stick to it consistently. I genuinely think that’s the only thing that will save him. Start from scratch basically. If we go into West Ham with the same set up as palace it will conform all of the concerns of the last 10 months. Luiz needs to play, Mcginn has to be dropped imo. 

[VillaParkAvenue]

10 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I do think ONE strong CM beside Kamara makes a world of difference and the " system " more workable to be fair 

What's funny is that last season, I remember us getting pumped and exposed on the wings in one game due to the Fullbacks being to far advanced.

Next game, the full backs were more disciplined, we performed well, and won.

So I don't see why we can't do the same now, it's like we're not learning.

Also seems, as much as people don't necessarily favour the 4 - 3 - 1 - 2 with Ings and Ollie, it's where our best performances have come from.

In hindsight, it's probably what we should have gone with again.

Gerrard will always go with the diamond (4312) when he really needs a result. After that it’s straight back to the christmas tree for the next game.

[Mantis]

57 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I wonder, if we were to sign a top CM, like a Newcastle Bruno, and drop McGinn, would be all of a sudden be a real force?

Gerrard would rather be sacked than do this.

[Delphinho123]

I’d love him to play this…

——————Watkins——————
Coutinho———————Bailey
——————Ramsey——————
————Luiz———Kamara———
—————————————————-
Digne—Mings—Chambers—Cash

Id tell the fullbacks that only one can go forward and must be ready to defend first and foremost. Luiz and Kamara would hold and not do much attacking at all. They’d also shift over to cover any attacking fullback. Buendia to come on after 55mins to add impetus and/or challenge one of the two for a starting place.

We need to go back to basics. Be more compact and not allow teams to run through us and get in down the channels. The current system with marauding full backs and not playing anybody in the middle of the pitch is suicide. McGinn absolutely has to be dropped. 
 

[MaVilla]

59 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I wonder, if we were to sign a top CM, like a Newcastle Bruno, and drop McGinn, would be all of a sudden be a real force?

we might improve, but i also think the formation/tactics are hindering us.

Its almost like a double whammy, we are short in some key areas on the pitch, but also the formation/tactics are comedy levels of bad.

[Jas10]

Just now, Delphinho123 said:

I’d love him to play this…

——————Watkins——————
Coutinho———————Bailey
——————Ramsey——————
————Luiz———Kamara———
—————————————————-
Digne—Mings—Chambers—Cash

Id tell the fullbacks that only one can go forward and must be ready to defend first and foremost. Luiz and Kamara would hold and not do much attacking at all. They’d also shift over to cover any attacking fullback. Buendia to come on after 55mins to add impetus and/or challenge one of the two for a starting place.

We need to go back to basics. Be more compact and not allow teams to run through us and get in down the channels. The current system with marauding full backs and not playing anybody in the middle of the pitch is suicide. McGinn absolutely has to be dropped. 
 

No Buendia?

[thunderball]

55 minutes ago, Sulberto21 said:

Eddie Howe also got them to play 15 yards further up the pitch.  

Newcastle were hard to beat  - they drew a lot of games. Howe gave them more attacking intent and shape. They also keep the ball better. No more Bruce and hoof.

my brother is an insufferable geordie fan so I watch most of their games.

the signings made a difference to their attacking play. 

Exactly this, we have plenty of attacking talent but no stable platform in midfield to launch attacks, repel their attacks and form a defence in front of our nervous and often last ditch defence ( because Cash/Digne play so forward. For me another solid DM along side the Rolls-Royce Kamara would do just this, and it would in place of McGinn. I would play Luiz as another ball player in the middle and Coutinho/Buendia/Bailey with Watkins upfront. I also think Saar would have been another great option up there.

TBH it would be worth trying Nakamba in the middle instead of McGinn.

Edited August 23, 2022 by thunderball

[Vive_La_Villa]

56 minutes ago, Sulberto21 said:

Eddie Howe also got them to play 15 yards further up the pitch.  

Newcastle were hard to beat  - they drew a lot of games. Howe gave them more attacking intent and shape. They also keep the ball better. No more Bruce and hoof.

my brother is an insufferable geordie fan so I watch most of their games.

the signings made a difference to their attacking play. 

Eddie Howe has done a great job, he was actually one of my choices for next manager as I think he did a fantastic job at Bournemouth considering the resources. But can you imagine the melt down on here if we appointed him and his first signings consisted of Burn and Wood.
 

Would have been hilarious.

[IrishVilla10]

8 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

How does that explain how bad we look from set-pieces ? What the hell is our set piece specialist doing with the team?

Our numbers from set pieces have gone down defensively and offensively since McPhee arrived. He needs to go too 

[CarryOnVilla]

31 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

I’d love him to play this…

——————Watkins——————
Coutinho———————Bailey
——————Ramsey——————
————Luiz———Kamara———
—————————————————-
Digne—Mings—Chambers—Cash

Id tell the fullbacks that only one can go forward and must be ready to defend first and foremost. Luiz and Kamara would hold and not do much attacking at all. They’d also shift over to cover any attacking fullback. Buendia to come on after 55mins to add impetus and/or challenge one of the two for a starting place.

We need to go back to basics. Be more compact and not allow teams to run through us and get in down the channels. The current system with marauding full backs and not playing anybody in the middle of the pitch is suicide. McGinn absolutely has to be dropped. 
 

 

i agree. 
 

too many people are transfixed on having a “new midfielder and that would solve our issues” kind of vibe. when it really the system we play… we have far too many players over committing to our attacking play that they’re are always out of position on the turnovers and are forced to scramble  back in a panic. 
 

as things stand, overloading our attacking play isn’t achieving much, because we don’t have have the players to think and pass quickly enough. We are always losing possession to rubbish passing or running in to cul da sacs. 

if we commit less players to the attacking play, we will be far more stronger on the middle and wings  and harder to break down. If anything, we are probably more like to win more turnovers higher up the pitch this way to, allowing us to hit quicker counters.. 

It may not be exciting football, but it will win us points 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by CarryOnVilla

[ender4]

21 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

I’d love him to play this…

——————Watkins——————
Coutinho———————Bailey
——————Ramsey——————
————Luiz———Kamara———
—————————————————-
Digne—Mings—Chambers—Cash

Id tell the fullbacks that only one can go forward and must be ready to defend first and foremost. Luiz and Kamara would hold and not do much attacking at all. They’d also shift over to cover any attacking fullback. Buendia to come on after 55mins to add impetus and/or challenge one of the two for a starting place.

We need to go back to basics. Be more compact and not allow teams to run through us and get in down the channels. The current system with marauding full backs and not playing anybody in the middle of the pitch is suicide. McGinn absolutely has to be dropped. 
 

Yep, i'd like the defenders to defend, the midfielders to create (the DM to also assist with defending) and the attackers to assist and score goals.  That's it. Keep it simple. 

[OutByEaster?]

On Watkins goal against Palace, just as he starts his celebration, you get a really good view of the problem with our shape.

Now, I know it's a bit bonkers to be making a tactical criticism at a goal celebration, I realise that, I know it's a bit mad - but....

As Watkins runs off to celebrate, there's a line of five attacking players behind him - Digne on the left, Ramsey and Buendia, Bailey who has coming inside and McGinn on the right - all on the edge of the Palace box. 

That's a winger that's come inside, a full back playing on the wing, two players at number ten and a midfielder playing down the right wing - it's only a surprise that Cash isn't also in that line.

From those positions - when attacks break down, all of those players are the wrong side of the ball - six of them - it's why we're often exposed at the back, with just three or four players covering half of the pitch against runners.

I love teams that play with attacking full backs, they add something to any attack.

I love teams that play with number tens, players with the freedom to get forward and create.

I love teams that play with a traditional winger.

I'm not sure playing with attacking fullbacks and three numbers tens and a winger all at the same time is remotely sensible though.

If we were a cricket team we'd have eight fast bowlers.

 

[weedman]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I do think ONE strong CM beside Kamara makes a world of difference and the " system " more workable to be fair 

What's funny is that last season, I remember us getting pumped and exposed on the wings in one game due to the Fullbacks being to far advanced.

Next game, the full backs were more disciplined, we performed well, and won.

So I don't see why we can't do the same now, it's like we're not learning.

Also seems, as much as people don't necessarily favour the 4 - 3 - 1 - 2 with Ings and Ollie, it's where our best performances have come from.

In hindsight, it's probably what we should have gone with again.

The reason it's out most successful formation under Gerrard is because it's the only formation he plays that actually allows the team to play the way he wants it to. It keeps the midfield really narrow in a diamond meaning when the full backs advance we're not wide open and there are lots of options for passing in the middle. 

Its not a perfect formation by any means but it's the closest thing to a set up that he's seemingly built us for. Plus Ings drops and almost plays as a 10 most of the time as well giving us the fabled 2x10s and a striker. 

You just can't play 2 attacking wing backs and a wide open midfield, it just can't work, the midfield diamond actually keeps us relatively compact in the middle that helps mitigate it. Again, obviously not perfect but it's much better than anything else he's served up 

[tomsky_11]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Also seems, as much as people don't necessarily favour the 4 - 3 - 1 - 2 with Ings and Ollie, it's where our best performances have come from.

In hindsight, it's probably what we should have gone with again.

Yep 20 points from 12 games is a decent return when playing both.

Wish we'd gone that way vs Bournemouth, but Bailey preseason probably forced decision not to.

[duke313]

1 minute ago, tomsky_11 said:

Yep 20 points from 12 games is a decent return when playing both.

Wish we'd gone that way vs Bournemouth, but Bailey preseason probably forced decision not to.

So we play with 4321 against Bournemouth and lose, change to 4312 against Everton and win, then change again to 4321 against Palace and lose.  I think I know what formation we're going to use against West Ham.

[ender4]

Just now, duke313 said:

So we play with 4321 against Bournemouth and lose, change to 4312 against Everton and win, then change again to 4321 against Palace and lose.  I think I know what formation we're going to use against West Ham.

3-6-1?