Transgenderism

[Mark Albrighton]

9 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Related but different.

The non binary thing is more an identity matter. Basically built around the concept of gender being a spectrum that doesn't fall into the simple binary of 'male' and 'female'.

You can be transgender and non-binary, or transgender and binary. It's just a matter of acknowledging that for some people, they feel they have both male and female gender traits, or indeed neither.

Thanks I have the general gist, I was just wondering if it’s more of a grey area in general, when it comes to practical terms for day to day life, like sporting activities, like changing rooms etc. 

I guess it comes down to the individual.

[Stevo985]

6 hours ago, desensitized43 said:

It has a lot to do with it. What you're born with is the basis by which a birth certificate will show "male" or "female". It's the difference between "sex" and "gender". We don't get to choose what sex or gender we're born, and sometimes what sex your born doesn't match your gender, but the act of changing sex (through reassignment) to match gender is a choice.

So the question seems to me, are female-only spaces for people of a female sex or a female gender?

 

Like I said in my first post in here, sex and gender aren’t the same thing. 
 

Someone’s “equipment” may dictate what sex they were when they were born. 
 

But somebody’s gender is up to them. So no, it actually has nothing to do with it. A transgender woman who hasn’t had an operation to remove her equipment has every right to be regarded as a woman if she chooses 

[TheAuthority]

7 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Like I said in my first post in here, sex and gender aren’t the same thing. 
 

Someone’s “equipment” may dictate what sex they were when they were born. 
 

But somebody’s gender is up to them. So no, it actually has nothing to do with it. A transgender woman who hasn’t had an operation to remove her equipment has every right to be regarded as a woman if she chooses 

Ben, how do your thoughts apply to people who are born with both genitalia? 

My simplistic observation is that if you google "hermaphrodite" the word "disorder" appears a lot. Actually it appears constantly.

Which is similar to the trans folks on the doc I mentioned above who talk about their representation being all negative.

If you were born with both genitalia and everthing you find online about yourself is framed as a 'disorder' - well that is **** terrible.

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, TheAuthority said:

Ben, how do your thoughts apply to people who are born with both genitalia? 

My simplistic observation is that if you google "hermaphrodite" the word "disorder" appears a lot. Actually it appears constantly.

Which is similar to the trans folks on the doc I mentioned above who talk about their representation being all negative.

If you were born with both genitalia and everthing you find online about yourself is framed as a 'disorder' - well that is **** terrible.

You could say that about any disorder I suppose. 

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Ben, how do your thoughts apply to people who are born with both genitalia? 

My simplistic observation is that if you google "hermaphrodite" the word "disorder" appears a lot. Actually it appears constantly.

Which is similar to the trans folks on the doc I mentioned above who talk about their representation being all negative.

If you were born with both genitalia and everthing you find online about yourself is framed as a 'disorder' - well that is **** terrible.

I don't really know to be honest. It's not something I've particularly thought about that much.

I guess my opinions on trans would apply to them, in so much as they would know what gender they are so they have every right to be regarded as whatever gender they "choose".

The sport debate gets even more complicated here though, which again is evidenced in the Semenya situation

[Stevo985]

14 hours ago, Chindie said:

I do kinda think the ever present sports question is a bit of a red herring. It's seemingly used as a 'pain point' in the discussion to undermine the idea of trans rights, when it's kinda a sideshow. It's not important. But it's always there as a way of saying 'steady on, careful now' despite that.

I disgaree that it's not important. I think it's very important in it's own context.

But I agree that it's separate from the overall discussion of trans rights. The rights of trans people shouldn't be affected because of sport. As in a trans woman shouldn't have less rights just because it might cause some complications in sport.

It's a totally separate discussion imo

[Wainy316]

13 hours ago, sne said:

I remember South Park did an episode on the surgery part of this years and years ago. Can't remember the details but it was about Mr Garrison wanting to become a woman, one of the kids wanted to be taller to play basketball and one of the kids dad wanted to be a dolphin.

Not sure how that episode would hold up against the current ideas.

I'm pretty sure Kyle wanted surgery to be black rather tall.  And yes Gerald, as a dolphin/jewphin was both disturbing and hilarious.

South Park slips the net.  They're still doing the same shit now.

[Chindie]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

I disgaree that it's not important. I think it's very important in it's own context.

But I agree that it's separate from the overall discussion of trans rights. The rights of trans people shouldn't be affected because of sport. As in a trans woman shouldn't have less rights just because it might cause some complications in sport.

It's a totally separate discussion imo

This is basically what I mean.

It's raised as a reason to hobble (or in the more grim cases, disparage) trans rights. But it's only really relevant in it's own context - basically it's an issue for sports to handle themselves, and not a reason to critique the entire concept of trans rights.

[Stevo985]

40 minutes ago, Chindie said:

This is basically what I mean.

It's raised as a reason to hobble (or in the more grim cases, disparage) trans rights. But it's only really relevant in it's own context - basically it's an issue for sports to handle themselves, and not a reason to critique the entire concept of trans rights.

Yeah agreed 100%

[HanoiVillan]

That's also how it actually *is* handled as well. One possible reason for an exemption to Equality Act requirements is for sporting organisations who can prove that allowing trans people to compete harms either 'fair competition' or 'the safety of competitors' (see: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/195), so this already exists. Governing bodies may also find that allowing trans people to compete does *not* cause sufficient problems to need an exemption in this way. One big fight happening currently is in rugby, where the RFU allow trans women to compete in the women's game, while World Rugby do not permit trans competitors in internationals.

One other thing I would say vis-a-vis sport, is that the conversation usually turns very quickly to elite sport, but of course most people engage in sport at very non-elite levels, and while there may be Difficult Questions about world records in Olympic women's weightlifting, there's probably not really a good reason for trans women not to be allowed to compete in the ladies' badminton league at the local leisure centre, for instance.

[TheAuthority]

48 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Difficult Questions about world records in Olympic women's weightlifting, there's probably not really a good reason for trans women not to be allowed to compete in the ladies' badminton league at the local leisure centre, for instance.

[veloman]

Has any one actually competed in a sport with a transsexual ? In my sport , cycling, I was in  club with a bloke who changed to a woman; the story certainly made local TV news.  The person. now a woman, wanted to get changed/ showered etc with the women (so did I ) but the "cradle"  women were uneasy about it; so this person sued the sport's governing body for not providing separate changing rooms. The result was a significant financial loss to a sport run on a shoe string (at this level). This individual quit the sport soon after  and was never seen again. At the time - possibly mid 90's  - in a field of 120 riders, probably only about 10% would be women and, to my knowledge, only 2 other transsexuals racing. I suggest this situation is a minefield at any level and not all sports have the finance to deal with it.

[Junxs]

23 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

(notice how quickly this discussion moved to the 'predators in the bathroom' trope)

Maybe because that's where the true acceptance lies. When it becomes personal

I personally don't see any reason why any one discriminates against anyone else in any form of life..

But when it becomes personal, thats when people tend to draw the line.

Women by nature are more private than men, having a man getting changed next to them is uncomfortable hence why we have separate changing rooms to begin with. So having a stranger in the changing room who looks like a man (irrelevant that he is gender reassigned as she wont know that, as they've never spoken). Its cause for alarm, first thing you think is "what is this man doing in here?!"

So the bottom line, how someone feels on the inside is their own business, but when it encroaches on other people thats where it becomes different. So that's why people jump to the 'predators in the bathroom' trope

[chrisp65]

19 minutes ago, Junxs said:

Maybe because that's where the true acceptance lies. When it becomes personal

I personally don't see any reason why any one discriminates against anyone else in any form of life..

But when it becomes personal, thats when people tend to draw the line.

Women by nature are more private than men, having a man getting changed next to them is uncomfortable hence why we have separate changing rooms to begin with. So having a stranger in the changing room who looks like a man (irrelevant that he is gender reassigned as she wont know that, as they've never spoken). Its cause for alarm, first thing you think is "what is this man doing in here?!"

So the bottom line, how someone feels on the inside is their own business, but when it encroaches on other people thats where it becomes different. So that's why people jump to the 'predators in the bathroom' trope

This is why you never get female nurses.

Two sizes do not fit all. many different people have many different opinions. I really don’t think making a presumption on behalf of 50% of the planet’s population helps move anything forward.

From memory, many of the changing facilities in Germany at swimming pools were unisex / open / communal but then also had some cubicles. That wouldn’t suggest all women worry about dangly bits.

It could just be lots of us here are still hung up about sex and willies and boobies because a lot of people in the UK have been taught to be hung up about the subject. It’s conditioning, nurture, not nature.

 

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, Junxs said:

...when it becomes personal, thats when people tend to draw the line.

Women by nature are more private than men, having a man getting changed next to them is uncomfortable hence why we have separate changing rooms to begin with. So having a stranger in the changing room who looks like a man (irrelevant that he is gender reassigned as she wont know that, as they've never spoken). Its cause for alarm, first thing you think is "what is this man doing in here?!"

So the bottom line, how someone feels on the inside is their own business, but when it encroaches on other people thats where it becomes different. So that's why people jump to the 'predators in the bathroom' trope

The problem here is that this isn't really how bathrooms or changing facilities work, in practice. In practice, people go to the facilities of the gender they associate with, and toilets and changing rooms do not have bouncers, nor are people expected to provide ID to enter. A woman taking the law into their own hands to find out people's genders would be taking large risks, because butch lesbians and androgynous-looking women exist. Therefore, even if transgender people did not exist, a woman who decided to start policing bathrooms would seem likely to 'catch' far more people who were born as women but do not fit a 'feminine' stereotype than they would 'catch' men who felt like using the women's facilities for whatever reason.

We also need to tackle the 'predators in the bathroom' trope head on. The evidence is clear that this is not a statistically-significant concern. For instance, see 'Gender Identity Nondiscrimination Laws in Public Accommodations: a Review of Evidence Regarding Safety and Privacy in Public Restrooms, Locker Rooms, and Changing Rooms' (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z ), which finds both that 'reports of privacy and safety violations in public restrooms, locker rooms, and changing rooms are exceedingly rare' and that 'fears of increased safety and privacy violations as a result of nondiscrimination laws are not empirically grounded.'

Rather than simply state that of course people will have bigoted or fearful views of others, it might be better to investigate whether people actually do think that way, whether there is good reason for them to feel that way or not, and if not, how we might be able to change people's perceptions (since going around in life in fear of others seems like a pretty suboptimal way to live anyway).

[KenjiOgiwara]

On 11/11/2020 at 16:15, Stevo985 said:

My personal opinion on it is there is a distinction between "sex" and "gender"

To me, your "sex" is what you were assigned at birth. Your original biological makeup, which is kind of undeniable. It's science (not saying there aren't some grey areas)

Your gender is how you identify and can be whatever the **** you want it to be. Let people be who they want and respect them for it.

I dunno if that's seen as "right" or not, but that's how it is in my head. Happy to be educated on the matter.

Completely agree on that. 

I think however when it comes to how gender is practised in society it becomes a problem. 

I would have no problems with respecting a persons wish to be adressed this or that, as long it didn't affect people of those sexes in a way they deemed problematic. At that point you are still the gender you were born as. 

Now ofc. we can do our best to work around it, but in the end you are the sex you are. Can't change that. 

Edited November 12, 2020 by KenjiOgiwara

[rjw63]

Time to borrow some of @Chindie's Aubrey Kate videos I think

 

[Chindie]

To Google or not to Google, that is the question.

[rjw63]

4 hours ago, Chindie said:

To Google or not to Google, that is the question.

[kidlewis]

Gender and sex absolutely different. 

I think the danger (and not just with trans related discussions) is about entitlement and justifying other unacceptable behaviours as a result of being different. 

So just because you're part of a minority group doesn't absolve you from being a bell end, I don't think anyone would disagree with that but the media and some individuals do purport the notion that it's some kind of passport to do whatever the hell you want.

Which I completely disagree with, and I recognise the above sentence did sound a bit gammony in explanation. 

The other element of complexity is where sex of an individual of different genders increases the risk of unfairness or discrimination or safety.  

A trans man who is now a women should 100% not be allowed to play women's rugby. Same goes for other sports where genetically, men are 100% stronger and more athletic in some sports. 

Another example could be a trans man in a womens prison and vice versa, not a good idea imo for obvious reasons.

Legislation (like accessibility did) will result in bathrooms in new build restaurants and commercial spaces be much larger and individual (i.e. a restaurant will have four toilets, for all genders with their own sink etc in a self contained space. That alleviates any issue regarding gender toilets in commercial spaces. This is already being delivered in some restaurants I have been in to, and it makes sense purely for equality. No busy bathrooms for only men or women (just look at football stadium queues at half time for that), and everyone has to wait their turn. A very good example of equality working