Laughable Chimp Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 (edited) Think its a bit too soon to give up on him. He's literally just turned 21(he might even still be 20, there's conflicting birthdates online). I'd try and offer him a year extension to his contract and see what he can do. Edited February 8, 2023 by Laughable Chimp 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 12 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said: Think its a bit too soon to give up on him. He's literally just turned 21(he might even still be 20, there's conflicting birthdates online). I'd try and offer him a year extension to his contract and see what he can do. We certainly gave Gary Gardner a lot of chances after his knee injury. Though not sure that is a great example to come up with as he wasn't ever really good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david-avfc Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 A shame he’s appeared to stagnate as I had high hopes for him. The preseason he had one year under Dean Smith he was our best player and deserved a crack in the first team, but when the season came around Smith reverted to El Ghazi and other senior players who weren’t fully fit or bedded in and he lost his momentum. He then went out on loan to Stoke and started well but then got injured and lost his momentum again. Haven’t been following him this year but seems like he’s been in and out of Cardiff’s team and unfortunately hasn’t done much for them 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 (edited) Was looking through his stats to try and make the case for him. I noticed despite his limited minutes his managed to win 2 penalties for cardiff this season already. Then I go to watch the highlights of these events and the cardiff pen-taker missed both pens lol. But yeah, generally there are some very impressive dribbling/take-on stats, together with being able to win fouls in dangerous areas as those two generally go together. Very high tackling stats too which is impressive, suggesting that he has very good work rate. The biggest issue seems to be the lack of end-product. His goal return is not that bad for Championship level for a winger considering his minutes played, but still pretty mediocre at best. Having 0 assists across his 2 championship loans so far is very poor though and it doesn't seem to be a case of bad luck(although if we could the pens he won, you could argue he's had 2 assists). The underlying stats also suggest a lack of creating ability. Which is weird considering his take-on creation is very high in both loans. Then it hit me. Its because he's taking on players and then instead of releasing the ball to a better placed player, he's taking the shot on himself. Could explain his high shoots taken stats and very low shooting accuracy this season. Regardless, I do think there's something there with him it would be a bit foolish to let him go so soon. Not at 20/21 years of age where he could very well still develop some of the abilities needed to take advantage of his other assets. Edited February 8, 2023 by Laughable Chimp 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwi1890 Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 41 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said: Think its a bit too soon to give up on him. He's literally just turned 21(he might even still be 20, there's conflicting birthdates online). I'd try and offer him a year extension to his contract and see what he can do. And then what? If he doesn’t do anything and still here at 23-24? Some players will be moved it doesn’t mean the are poor players it’s just that standard for premier league football is so high. Considering how low his wages are in comparison to a first team player a fee of £5m + add ons would be good money. 7 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said: Was looking through his stats to try and make the case for him. I noticed despite his limited minutes his managed to win 2 penalties for cardiff this season already. Then I go to watch the highlights of these events and the cardiff pen-taker missed both pens lol. But yeah, generally there are some very impressive dribbling/take-on stats, together with being able to win fouls in dangerous areas as those two generally go together. Very high tackling stats too which is impressive, suggesting that he has very good work rate. The biggest issue seems to be the lack of end-product. His goal return is not that bad for Championship level for a winger considering his minutes played, but still pretty mediocre at best. Having 0 assists across his 2 championship loans so far is very poor though and it doesn't seem to be a case of bad luck(although if we could the pens he won, you could argue he's had 2 assists). The underlying stats also suggest a lack of creating ability. Which is weird considering his take-on creation is very high in both loans. Then it hit me. Its because he's taking on players and then instead of releasing the ball to another player, he's taking the shot on himself. That's also probably why his shooting stats are so high and his shot accuracy is so low. I don’t think he’s performed poor at championship level, I think his decision making needs to improve but that’s the whole point of a loan to improve and learn through playing. And I get what you’re saying re age but he seems a bit light weight , youngsters who make it at premier league level are physically developed at a young age, like Ramsey, Rooney even Chuckwemeka. I think Finn Azaz is even though older has a better chance to make it here than Jaden Philogene a slim chance but a but a bigger possibility of it happening . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, gwi1890 said: And then what? If he doesn’t do anything and still here at 23-24? Some players will be moved it doesn’t mean the are poor players it’s just that standard for premier league football is so high. Considering how low his wages are in comparison to a first team player a fee of £5m + add ons would be good money. I don’t think he’s performed poor at championship level, I think his decision making needs to improve but that’s the whole point of a loan to improve and learn through playing. And I get what you’re saying re age but he seems a bit light weight , youngsters who make it at premier league level are physically developed at a young age, like Ramsey, Rooney even Chuckwemeka. I think Finn Azaz is even though older has a better chance to make it here than Jaden Philogene a slim chance but a but a bigger possibility of it happening . Then get rid of him then. I don’t see the problem really, like you said his wages are and would be low if we extended his contract. If he doesn’t perform as well as we hope, I’m sure we can still sell him for 5m + addons a bit later too. If he actually does better, we can sell him for even more or maybe he even makes it into our squad. I understand your point that most won’t succeed at a pl level, I’m actually generaly a lot more critical of our youth than most people here and that’s gotten me into spata with some users. Its just in this case, it just feels a bit too soon to cut our losses with him. Being able to perform at even just a middling level at championship at thate age is already quite impressive. What’s the harm really in giving him one extra year at this stage of his career where he could still develop a lot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post paul514 Posted February 8, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted February 8, 2023 When you have a player who is minimum championship level you should develop him and see how it turns out. If the worst comes to the worst you sell them for decent money. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 Giving up on a 20 year old that has impressed on both loans to a championship club despite a few unfortunate injuries. Never forget where you come from where you've been and what you stand for people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 I can't see us getting a big fee from an EFL club for him in the summer, they will look to sign him for next to nothing. I think that giving him another year and the chance to get clubs really interested in signing him, after he has had an injury free season and done well somewhere, might make better business sense, if at that point we decide to let him go. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villatillidie95 Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 He was brilliant in that pre-season and I remember him wanting to start against Watford for the first fixture of the season, unfortunately he didn't get the opportunity. We definitely shouldn't give up on him, however I do think under Emery it is going to be harder for some of the youngsters to get in. The reason for this is the remit Emery has been brought in under, the explicit aim is to get this team into a state where we can challenge for Europe in the shortest possible time. Players like Bidace and Archer are very good and would contribute to our team, but the problem now is that expectations from the ownership, board and fans are sky high, we were trying to get players like Henrique and Williams to play in those forward positions, meaning we want players who have proven themselves in a top tier league for a while. This is obviously not a great sign when trying to give youngsters an opportunity to shine, however it may be necessary for Emery to act that way in order to achieve the objectives he has been hired to achieve. Even if Bidace and other youngsters were to leave the club, they can and will still have decent careers in football. A lot of the time making it, especially in the PL, is luck and due to injury, Antonio stepped up for hammers due to injuries years ago and then was main striker for many years. The fact that he is playing in the championship is a great sign and will mean that even if the club do sell him on, he has a good chance to get back to the PL in time. FWIW, we should keep him, he was very good that season and very unfortunate not to be given a run of games imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 I think the key is for the price. While Jaden has shown flashes of improvement - I don't think he's going to be what Villa needs going forward. At 20 - he needs to be cementing his place with the first team at least during his loan but even then he's struggled to really impress. That doesn't mean he can't make a career out of the championship or even the PL but is he going to substantially improve the starting XI or rotation XI? Can hang on for development, but JJ was regularly starting for us at 20. Albrighton, if we're talking about wingers, was getting regular starts at 20 and looked better than Jaden ever has. So something to keep in mind if we're trying to hang on for development. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 20 hours ago, Villatillidie95 said: He was brilliant in that pre-season and I remember him wanting to start against Watford for the first fixture of the season, unfortunately he didn't get the opportunity. We definitely shouldn't give up on him, however I do think under Emery it is going to be harder for some of the youngsters to get in. The reason for this is the remit Emery has been brought in under, the explicit aim is to get this team into a state where we can challenge for Europe in the shortest possible time. Players like Bidace and Archer are very good and would contribute to our team, but the problem now is that expectations from the ownership, board and fans are sky high, we were trying to get players like Henrique and Williams to play in those forward positions, meaning we want players who have proven themselves in a top tier league for a while. This is obviously not a great sign when trying to give youngsters an opportunity to shine, however it may be necessary for Emery to act that way in order to achieve the objectives he has been hired to achieve. Even if Bidace and other youngsters were to leave the club, they can and will still have decent careers in football. A lot of the time making it, especially in the PL, is luck and due to injury, Antonio stepped up for hammers due to injuries years ago and then was main striker for many years. The fact that he is playing in the championship is a great sign and will mean that even if the club do sell him on, he has a good chance to get back to the PL in time. FWIW, we should keep him, he was very good that season and very unfortunate not to be given a run of games imo I agree with your comments, but whilst it will not be easy for young players to break into our team in the coming years, if they are good enough, it can still happen. That has been shown by the young players that have come through at Chelsea, Citeh and Liverpool in recent years. Youngsters know their chances of breaking through at such clubs are lower than at others, but still they sign for them in their numbers and as you have said, if they don't make it there they can have a footballing future somewhere else. I too hope that Jaden and Cameron, can make it with us, if they and others don't, then I will wish them well at their new clubs and hope that we have inserted a buy back or a sell on percentage in their transfer deals like Chelsea/Citeh do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 I think we have chose 2 poor loan destinations fot him and that hasn't helped. I imagine Unai will take a look in the summer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Most players who come through the academy won’t make it here, but making a few million off players certainly helps. Probably best time to sell or lose on a free 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Surprised at the negativity. Last season he started quite well at Stoke and same happened at Cardiff. Injuries are an issue though. He looked decent v Leeds though a few weeks back. Not expecting him to be a world beater as I think we've learnt our lesson now from hyping up our youth players over last 15 years. I actually wondered if we might recall him this month like we did with Kesler given our lack of wide options and give him a few sub cameos to see what he's like. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupinthe5th Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 Surely worth 5Million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Gave the ball away a few times towards the end but overall he's playing well tonight, has put in some good tackles, for a player not very big in stature he shows good strength and willingness to battle, his passing has been good, and has put in some good crosses from which he could have had a few assists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 If it wasn't for injuries and if he was at a better team than Cardiff I think he would be currently hailed in the breath as Archer and Ramsey. Finding decent teams for our loanees to play in seems to make a massive difference to how they do, or how they're perceived Put Archer and Ramsey in the Cardiff team and they would probably do okay, but the perception of them would be way less positive as would be much more difficult for them to do well in a team that struggles mostly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuwabatake Sanjuro Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Good performance from him tonight, he has a solid career ahead of him whatever happens here. Could be an Emery player still but needs to keep up performances like this tonight and kick on when he gets the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Played well second half as well, something I noticed watching this game compared to seeing him play earlier in the season is that Cardiff players were passing to him a lot more and getting him involved, in those earlier games he'd look dangerous when he had the ball but wasn't getting the ball enough. He actually played right wingback today, put in so many dangerous crosses, often doing well with some skill to beat a man before doing so. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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