Academy General Topic

[sir_gary_cahill]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

My concern with our academy is, all the bright prospects, seem all the same type of players.....wingers or inside forwards, in the main.

My question is this?.........Would a young budding Bryan Robson, Duncan Edwards, Gareth Barry or Patrick Viera or Yaya Toure be spotted. Would they be overlooked?

• When was the last time we produced a complete player like sid cowans
• When have we produced a commanding centre back, since Cahill, Clark and Baker.
• could we not find an Andy Townsend or Kevin Richardson or our own.

It just seems to me we are a bit narrow visioned, or have been in the past.....it would be nice to see kids come through to fill all area's of the pitch.

Jack Grealish is a complete player, no?

[useless]

7 hours ago, useless said:

 As an aside if Harrison and Myles Sohna are brothers than that's three sets of siblings that we have playing in our youth teams.

Just noticed that they were born on the same day, so probably twins.

[Sam-AVFC]

Really great to see how many of them are involved in 1st team training on the most recent video. It's probably mostly a practicality but I wonder if Smith is expecting to have to utilise them with the ridiculous fixture congestion coming up.

[mikeyp102]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

 

My question is this?.........Would a young budding Bryan Robson, Duncan Edwards, or Patrick Viera or Yaya Toure be spotted. Would they be overlooked?

• When have we produced a commanding centre back, since Cahill, Clark and Baker.

You’ve named some absolute greats in the top paragraph, it’s not easy to bring through those types of players. You could ask the same about the majority of clubs - why haven’t they bought through world class players 

As for cb’s, this one of the hardest positions to bring through players, especially a commanding one as these attributes come with experience. How many have Man Utd bought through, or Liverpool, what about Arsenal or Spurs? 

[TRO]

8 hours ago, sir_gary_cahill said:

Jack Grealish is a complete player, no?

For the position he plays maybe but overall not so sure......he doesn't score enough and his aerial ability is modest.....some of his defensive qualities is suspect, but ball retention is good.

they used to be called utility players had a bit if everything, not sure thats jack.....jack is just brilliant at what he does best, possession.....the complete midfielder, not so sure.

please don't take this as a player assassination....it is just meant to put it in context.

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by TRO

[TRO]

6 hours ago, mikeyp102 said:

You’ve named some absolute greats in the top paragraph, it’s not easy to bring through those types of players. You could ask the same about the majority of clubs - why haven’t they bought through world class players 

As for cb’s, this one of the hardest positions to bring through players, especially a commanding one as these attributes come with experience. How many have Man Utd bought through, or Liverpool, what about Arsenal or Spurs? 

You are looking at the wrong thing....its not the names, its the types, I Was trying to highlight.....if i said lesser players of similar type, you may have not understood, what i was getting at.

I am not asking them to bring through world class players.....just players who can play their positions competently.

I am not saying it isn't hard......I am saying that should be the target if we have any aspirations at all.

when was the last player, we developed from the academy that was our engine room with a defensive capabilty....my point is, I am not sure we look at developing those players. It seems to me we only spend time with talent that eventually comes in to the first team and struggles with close contact.....Jack really is an exception and it had taken him some time, to develop the necessary strength to negate challenges...that is the main reason why he has gone up several gears.....and that was identified and dedicatedly worked on, with success.

when do we develop players, that deal with the ugly work?

Edited June 6, 2020 by TRO

[sir_gary_cahill]

17 minutes ago, TRO said:

For the position he plays maybe but overall not so sure......he doesn't score enough and his aerial ability is modest.....some of his defensive qualities is suspect, but ball retention is good.

they used to be called utility players had a bit if everything, not sure thats jack.....jack is just brilliant at what he does best, possession.

please don't take this as a player assassination....it is just meant to put it in context.

 

I think you are right to a degree, this season is his best in terms of stats (goals scored and assists). I also think he has improved in the air. I don’t think that utility players really exist anymore, the way we play, we just let Grealish do what he wants, it can’t be good for our other player’s morale. Having McGinn back from injury will help take the burden from Grealish 

Edited June 6, 2020 by sir_gary_cahill

[villa4europe]

Are they part of restart?

and what days do they normally play matches? I’m interested on the potential impact the 11 man bench 5 subs rule staying next season might have, positive that a few of them will make the first team bench but the potential negative that they are pulled out of academy games to be there 

[TRO]

8 hours ago, useless said:

Two of our most highly rated youngsters and probably two of the best players in their age group in the country Carney Chukwuemeka and Aaron Ramsey are central midfielders. The academy setup is being revamped now anyway with Mark Harrison being brought in and the changes he's making, so will have to see how that improves things.

Thats encouraging.....but I am talking about the past.

We will see if the new regime, improves things.....at least the club, have made changes, maybe, they wasnt entirely convinced like me.

[useless]

In the last ten or so years the club have produced Craig  and Gary Gardner, Bannan, Johnson, Jonathon Hogg, as central midfielders, not amazing players of course, but all five have played regular football in the top two divisions, and in recent times the latter three would have probably improved our midfield. Most of those came through around ten years ago now though, can't think of many that have done as well since, I had high hopes for Doyle-Hayes.

[OutByEaster?]

34 minutes ago, TRO said:

When do we develop players, that deal with the ugly work?

TRO, I mean this with the greatest respect, but I think you might be struggling to come to terms with what the modern player is.

The ugly work isn't what it was - I know you want a player to be a big strong mans-man - the type of person that could carry a sack of coal up a flight of stairs, but that time is gone. You need players with some toughness and some resilience of course, but they don't look like they used to, resilience is shown in other ways. 

Of course you need defenders who can defend, and you need sitting midfielders who can control games, some size and strength will always be useful, but the rules of the game and its pace mean that the big strong men of the 70's are dinosaurs in the modern age, players aren't rugby props anymore they're 10,000 meter runners.

The kids that come through are the way they are by design; they're matched for the football that they'll be playing.

 

[TRO]

13 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

TRO, I mean this with the greatest respect, but I think you might be struggling to come to terms with what the modern player is.

The ugly work isn't what it was - I know you want a player to be a big strong mans-man - the type of person that could carry a sack of coal up a flight of stairs, but that time is gone. You need players with some toughness and some resilience of course, but they don't look like they used to, resilience is shown in other ways. 

Of course you need defenders who can defend, and you need sitting midfielders who can control games, some size and strength will always be useful, but the rules of the game and its pace mean that the big strong men of the 70's are dinosaurs in the modern age, players aren't rugby props anymore they're 10,000 meter runners.

The kids that come through are the way they are by design; they're matched for the football that they'll be playing.

 

I accept all of that....but the ugly work is still there in the modern form and we still struggle with it.

but maybe the examples I give are misleading my point.

 players like Henderson and fernandinho are not small in stature and do the job, i am referring to...I am just not convinced we are looking to groom players like that....some time ago we faced a huge Middlesbrough youth team, who bossed us all through the game.....I am not looking for a team full, just a proportionate few that can maybe become a good, CDM.....somebody must blood them, for them to be bought.

The type of players you mention with those attributes from the modern game are not being groomed either, imo.

The kids might be the way they are by design.....but that does not mean the demands of the game can be swept under the carpet and labelled as superseded....its not and the teams that appreciate this are doing better than us....they become more rounded.

I understand the game has changed, the game is much quicker and tackling is frowned upon more by refs.....but i still see elements from the past that exist.

The goals for are still as relevant today v goals against as they ever was, and that is the crux of the matter.

Do we really breed players to stop the opposition or defend stoutly?, imo....we don't...or if we do, we have a miserly success rate at it.

Our scouts at the time, obviously picked up Cahill, clarke and Baker.....maybe they are not asked to focus on those types.

Ps I have to go back in time so many times to highlight the standards we should be looking for......recent times have proved to be so low in standard, and difficult to make the relevant points.

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by TRO

[useless]

We haven't been producing players good enough for any of the positions on the pitch not just defensive side of things, the only reason you hear more about the youth products who play in the more attacking positions is because they're the prospects who will excite the fans, but that doesn't mean to say we haven't been tryng produce other types of players as well, we just haven't been very good at it, which is why as has been noted we're attempting to revamp our academy.

[messi11]

This is the best crop of young kids we have had in decades. 

Kaine Kesler is a right back? 

[Villan4Life]

38 minutes ago, messi11 said:

Kaine Kesler is a right back? 

He is.

[theboyangel]

another young Irishman coming our way.

Wasn’t Rory Hale a product of our academy too back along?

[sir_gary_cahill]

1 hour ago, theboyangel said:

another young Irishman coming our way.

Wasn’t Rory Hale a product of our academy too back along?

Yes, he was, good player, they all are!

[useless]

Apparently we've been watchng McBrde since last year, according to the Glentoran website 'he is a creative, classy central midfield player who can open up defences with his passing and running ability'. Just turned seventeen so a three year contract will take him up to his twentieth birthday.

[alreadyexists]

@Villan4Life I know you did some scouting north of the border, have you seen McBride play? 

[Zatman]

5 minutes ago, alreadyexists said:

@Villan4Life I know you did some scouting north of the border, have you seen McBride play? 

Northern Ireland i think he comes from not Scotland