Generic Virus Thread

[HanoiVillan]

46 minutes ago, sne said:

That's how I've always done it, pandemic or not. 

 

[Seat68]

29 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I could be wrong of course but wearing a mask or not wearing a mask feels to me to be the difference between hitting someone whilst driving a car at 70mph versus hitting someone whilst driving a car at 67 mph.

No it helps protect people from the wearer. If we all wear, we all help protect each other. 

[Seat68]

12 minutes ago, hycus-flange said:

Never said I don’t wear a mask. Just objected to the condescending attitude of the better than you wet wipes

From 

 

I see someone not in a mask when they should be, I don’t feel I am better. I pity them if anything for their lack of care for their fellow man. Yes I think they are idiots, yes I think they deserve to get a boil on their anus but I don’t think I am better. I just feel they lack of empathy. This is people broadly and not a specific person. Still this is more for the generic virus thread and not a light and fluffy pictures thread. 

 

[NurembergVillan]

2 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

From 

 

I see someone not in a mask when they should be, I don’t feel I am better. I pity them if anything for their lack of care for their fellow man. Yes I think they are idiots, yes I think they deserve to get a boil on their anus but I don’t think I am better. I just feel they lack of empathy. This is people broadly and not a specific person. Still this is more for the generic virus thread and not a light and fluffy pictures thread. 

 

I'm the opposite.

When I see someone behaving like a selfish word removed I ALWAYS think I'm better than them.

[bannedfromHandV]

23 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

No it helps protect people from the wearer. If we all wear, we all help protect each other. 

Thanks for that, standard government issue advice.

[Mark Albrighton]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I could be wrong of course but wearing a mask or not wearing a mask feels to me to be the difference between hitting someone whilst driving a car at 70mph versus hitting someone whilst driving a car at 67 mph.

I think it’s more like putting your headlights on when it’s raining doesn’t really help your visibility but it helps others see you. I think that’s a closer analogy to the masks discussion.

[hycus-flange]

17 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

I'm the opposite.

When I see someone behaving like a selfish word removed I ALWAYS think I'm better than them.

Even if they are exempt?  And if they are how would you know.  This is the holier than you wet wipe attitude I’m objecting to

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

The one good thing out of all of this is that it is unlikely a Corona type virus will be able to do this again.

The development of the Vaccine using multiple methods to crack the problem means we now have techniques that will allow us to create specific made to measure vaccines in the future a lot more easily and quickly.

The virus will always have the spikes and we now know what to do.

For future generations that's one positive.  At the start of this it was thought by some a vaccine could never be made.

[villakram]

1 hour ago, Seat68 said:

No it helps protect people from the wearer. If we all wear, we all help protect each other. 

The ongoing outbreaks directly contradict this. Hence, the lockdowns.

Edited November 20, 2020 by villakram
maybe not completely contradict, but help in this context is clearly very small.

[ml1dch]

22 minutes ago, hycus-flange said:

Even if they are exempt?  

Then they are probably safely looking after themselves at home, rather than taking the unnecessary risk of wandering around Lidl during a pandemic that is mainly impacting people like them.

[villakram]

15 hours ago, TB said:

I think you're trying to compare apples and oranges here: if A is doubtful, then B must also clearly be wrong, which isn't necessarily the case. A case study showing that the mask wearer runs the same risk of being infected as a non-mask wearer doesn't say anything at all about the potential risk to the people around an infected individual.

It's almost like you're saying: well, if it isn't proven that wearing a mask will protect me, why should I bother wearing a mask in order to protect other people?

To avoid getting infected yourself (at least, according to the Norwegian Institute of Public Health), keeping one metre distance from other people at all times is twice as effective as wearing a face mask, even when worn correctly. Double the distance, halve the risk of getting the virus.

To avoid the risk of infecting others nearby: Wearing a mask - any mask - will stop droplets from reaching anyone in the immediate vicinity, and the quality of the mask doesn't matter that much.

I've seen more than enough people walking around coughing and sneezing these past months, thanks. To me, that's very relevant, even outdoors where droplets are the most important factor. AFAIK, aerosol transmissions are only thought to be possible when spending time indoors in the same room (especially with limited ventilation) as someone with the virus over a period of time.

 

 

You are making the mistake of presenting ideal/laboratory use cases and imagining that is what is happening in everyday life. I am looking at the actual data in the actual world we live in. The large outbreaks ongoing globally, in the presence of large scale mask wearing empirically demonstrates that in practice masks are of little to no practical use. 

[Seat68]

4 minutes ago, villakram said:

The ongoing outbreaks directly contradict this. Hence, the lockdowns.

You will note I always use either help or refer to one of a number of measures. We all wear a mask correctly, wash hands and keep a distance will help reduce the spread of infection. Ongoing outbreaks my guess is due to a piece of that puzzle missing. 

[hycus-flange]

5 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Then they are probably safely looking after themselves at home, rather than taking the unnecessary risk of wandering around Lidl during a pandemic that is mainly impacting people like them.

Some don’t have the choice of hiding away from a 99.95% survival rate average death age of 82 years deadly plague

[snowychap]

39 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

At the start of this it was thought by some a vaccine could never be made.

I'm not sure that's the case or if it was then it was thought by only a few.

People were skeptical of the assumption that a vaccine was absolutely certain to be made, effective, trouble-free, long-lasting, &c. and that it would eradicate the virus in one fell swoop.

The various vaccines that are being developed have not answered all of those things even yet - though there is a great deal of confidence in the positive answers to at least some of the questions. All we have is data (not full data) from trials - we don't know precisely how it will perform beyond that, how long the effects may or will last, whether it will have to be an annual vaccination or top up.

[Xann]

26 minutes ago, hycus-flange said:

average death age of 82 years deadly plague

You're alright with the oldies coughing themselves to death?

Because some I'm alright Jack asymptomatic type decides to go shopping, unknowing that in the vicinity there's bod that works the country's largest employer?

My other half is a community nurse, she takes the bug into a care home and it's carnage or an NHS bed taken longtime.

[TB]

1 hour ago, villakram said:

You are making the mistake of presenting ideal/laboratory use cases and imagining that is what is happening in everyday life. I am looking at the actual data in the actual world we live in. The large outbreaks ongoing globally, in the presence of large scale mask wearing empirically demonstrates that in practice masks are of little to no practical use. 

I have tried to point out that there is a difference between wearing a mask in order to protect the wearer, and wearing a mask in order to protect those around you. The first scenario requires the best PPE available and basic understanding of how to avoid getting infected.  The other scenario requires basic PPE, but also that everyone uses PPE. I have also pointed out that I have observed very sloppy wearing of masks. In this actual world. That doesn't help either the wearer or the society. I think you're so eager to prove that masks are worthless that you turn a blind eye to any evidence that might point to the contrary, and are also making the mistake of using a case study that shows little effect of masks in scenario 1 as an argument that there's little effect of masks in scenario 2 as well.

I don't think there's any point in continuing this discussion, as we'll never agree.

[villakram]

33 minutes ago, TB said:

I have tried to point out that there is a difference between wearing a mask in order to protect the wearer, and wearing a mask in order to protect those around you. The first scenario requires the best PPE available and basic understanding of how to avoid getting infected.  The other scenario requires basic PPE, but also that everyone uses PPE. I have also pointed out that I have observed very sloppy wearing of masks. In this actual world. That doesn't help either the wearer or the society. I think you're so eager to prove that masks are worthless that you turn a blind eye to any evidence that might point to the contrary, and are also making the mistake of using a case study that shows little effect of masks in scenario 1 as an argument that there's little effect of masks in scenario 2 as well.

I don't think there's any point in continuing this discussion, as we'll never agree.

What evidence? and how am I eager to demonstrate how useless masks are? What a time to be alive, where simply looking at the available data and comparing it to expected outcomes turns one into some form of lunatic. 

The real world differs from the lab. Lot's of things that work in the lab don't work in the real world, e.g., see the pharma world and the amount of mouse and other models that fail. See physics, where theoretical models are consistently being overturned by new data. In physics as a purer science field, that very process is precisely what science is.

Here, lab work and common sense show that masks should be effective. Unfortunately, the data out in the wild contradicts this assumption (which you have done no more than repeat). In contrast, mask and PPE usage/protocol have clearly been shown to be actually effective in controlled hospital settings (although, see MRSA and all the other issues endemic therein). The reasons why are not clear, hence my pointing to your post from a few pages back as the suspicion is that the behavior you outlined may help to explain things.

All of this also ignores hygienic issues around repeated and/or longterm mask usage (wearing a mask for 8 hrs leads to interesting bacteria and fungal growth, for example) or the reduced blood oxygenation that wearing a mask causes.

 

 

[lapal_fan]

2 hours ago, hycus-flange said:

Some don’t have the choice of hiding away from a 99.95% survival rate average death age of 82 years deadly plague

And there we have it. 

Who cares about anyone else? 

[mrchnry]

3 hours ago, hycus-flange said:

Even if they are exempt?  And if they are how would you know.  This is the holier than you wet wipe attitude I’m objecting to

Taking away any context on whether I agree with you or not, you really come across as rude and hostile. It's no wonder nobody wants to hear your points.

[trekka]

Vaccination of the entire population (well those who want it) by the end of April? As Jonathan Van-Tam (JVT to his friends) put it this evening during the press conference, we are on the flight path home. There may be cross winds but we're getting there. I've no idea how truly effective the vaccines are (duration, whether people remain infectious) but the sooner we're no longer afraid to see our loved ones because we have some protection the better.

Quote

The plan would see vaccination of all priority cohorts completed by the end of February, with everyone who wants it in the English over-18s population vaccinated by April.

Health Service Journal

Edited November 20, 2020 by trekka