Racism Part two

[PussEKatt]

3 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said:

For accuracy, only counting actual party members as Nazis, is probably the way to go, but the casual usage on VT forums seems to suggest that generally a broader definition is found acceptable, and is rarely challenged.

Mea culpa!

If you read "Life in the third reich" by Paul Roland you will see that 90% of the population was brainwashed.

[chrisp65]

Thread has turned in to the History Channel.

[Chindie]

If we want to (kinda) get off the Nazis, it's predictably depressing that, on revealing some character teaser posters for their new LoTR show, a section of the internet has decried it as 'woke' because Amazon has cast some black people in it.

Sigh.

 

[Stevo985]

16 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Jordan Peterson recommended that book, and said it should remind people that had they been ordinary Germans, back in the 1930s, they would have just as likely been Nazis, as most Germans turned out to be.

I think about this kind of thing a lot. Peterson is a grade A word removed, so I'm reluctant to agree with anything he says, but I do think about it.

Similarly, if I grew up in the deep south of America back in the 50s and 60s, I'd probably be very racist. I'd probably be one of the guys protesting against black rights etc.

 

It sickens me to think that. I'd like to think I'd be on the "good" side, supporting civil rights and being against racism. But if I'd been brought up as a white person in that sort of environment, the would I really have the same opinion on racism that I do now?

It's so hard to tell. 

With what I know now I would obviously be on the right side of that part of history. But back then, how can we tell what we would have thought?

[Panto_Villan]

34 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I think about this kind of thing a lot. Peterson is a grade A word removed, so I'm reluctant to agree with anything he says, but I do think about it.

Similarly, if I grew up in the deep south of America back in the 50s and 60s, I'd probably be very racist. I'd probably be one of the guys protesting against black rights etc.

 

It sickens me to think that. I'd like to think I'd be on the "good" side, supporting civil rights and being against racism. But if I'd been brought up as a white person in that sort of environment, the would I really have the same opinion on racism that I do now?

It's so hard to tell. 

With what I know now I would obviously be on the right side of that part of history. But back then, how can we tell what we would have thought?

You may not have been out there protesting against black rights if you have relatively progressive views by today's standards, but of course you wouldn't be as "enlightened" as you are today. I feel like people probably lean left or right but the entire political spectrum on which that sits moves depending on the historical age - if you've got progressive views now, perhaps back in the 50s or 60s you might not have been someone going out to protest against black people having the vote, but you still might have some quite strong feelings about your daughter marrying a black man. And I'm sure the idea of a black President would be fairly revolting even to the more progressive people in the deep South, etc. Views that today would be considered barbaric.

The more sobering thought, I find, is that some aspect of whatever views you happen to hold today are likely to be considered deeply offensive to people in the future. Possibly not even that far into the future; maybe even your own children and more than likely your grandchildren (hence the use of quotation marks around the word "enlightened" in the first sentence).

Edited February 4, 2022 by Panto_Villan

[Mic09]

10 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

It sickens me to think that. I'd like to think I'd be on the "good" side, supporting civil rights and being against racism. But if I'd been brought up as a white person in that sort of environment, the would I really have the same opinion on racism that I do now?

It's so hard to tell. 

With what I know now I would obviously be on the right side of that part of history. But back then, how can we tell what we would have thought?

What's an even more difficult question, how do we know how the history will judge us in 50 years time.

I think it's important to not get ahead of ourselves on pretty much anything. I'm sure Nazis sounded like a reasonable set of people in 1931, or at least not the most evil people imaginable. Many of us could probably relate to them on many fronts if we lived back then. If we think we wouldn't, we should probably get off the historical high horse. 

I always think it's a good idea to think every moral or political position very carefully, and then question it again. 

Do we support something "good" that's "obvious"? I'm sure the medieval crusaders were too. 

Who knows what future brings, and how can we know we are on the good side of history. Maybe whatever our western leaders do is leading us to WW3 because we supported this or that. 

[Mark Albrighton]

So did Jimmy Carr owe Whoopi Goldberg a favour or something?

[Davkaus]

47 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said:

So did Jimmy Carr owe Whoopi Goldberg a favour or something?

The fact that it's been out since December and it's taken this long for someone to whip up a mob highlights how ridiculous it is; people who watch Jimmy Carr know what they're signing up for. I'm more offended by an MP petitioning to have content they don't like removed than I am by anything Carr says.

[HanoiVillan]

The people who watch him seem to be half the issue, given the applause it got.

[Eidolon]

Honestly with the Carr thing I think there is a disarming sense that he doesn’t actually believe anything like that and it’s an attempt at a cheap shock laugh. My mums side of the family is largely Roma and as someone who has been making a real effort to connect with that part of my family history over the last few years it honestly didn’t offend me too much. A small part of me was just happy someone acknowledged the deep impact it had on Romani people for once as we are often conveniently forgotten about when it comes to discussions of the holocaust amongst your average guy on the street.

That doesn’t excuse it and you can’t be applying certain standards to one person and not another but like with the whole Dave Chappelle storm over his jokes about transwomen it didn’t bother ME personally as much as it would if a serious person like a politician, actor, author etc said the same stuff….Ricky Gervais can GAGF though.

[Vive_La_Villa]

20 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I think about this kind of thing a lot. Peterson is a grade A word removed, so I'm reluctant to agree with anything he says, but I do think about it.

Similarly, if I grew up in the deep south of America back in the 50s and 60s, I'd probably be very racist. I'd probably be one of the guys protesting against black rights etc.

 

It sickens me to think that. I'd like to think I'd be on the "good" side, supporting civil rights and being against racism. But if I'd been brought up as a white person in that sort of environment, the would I really have the same opinion on racism that I do now?

It's so hard to tell. 

With what I know now I would obviously be on the right side of that part of history. But back then, how can we tell what we would have thought?

That’s when I think what chance have young kids got when their parents are openly racist in front of them from when they are a very young age.  

[chrisp65]

You can’t unpick every joke by every comedian.

You can try and work out if they punch up, or punch down.

I expect now that Rachel Riley knows about that joke she’ll find it too difficult to ever work with the guy again? What with him doing holocaust jokes?

 

 

 

[MakemineVanilla]

20 hours ago, PussEKatt said:

If you read "Life in the third reich" by Paul Roland you will see that 90% of the population was brainwashed.

I think Edgar Reitz's Heimat showed the slow process of how the population was corrupted.

If people are rewarded for believing certain things, then they will tend to believe them.

Shipbuilding??

Edited February 5, 2022 by MakemineVanilla

[PussEKatt]

This is true,after all Hitler came to power in 1933 I think.Any way it took a long time from when he gained power till when he had everybody on his side ready to go to war.

[chrisp65]

[Only2McInallys]

A book by Goldhagen in 1996 called Hitlers Willing Executioners argues that Germany as a whole  was deeply anti Semitic around this time and developed a strong desire to eliminate Jews and that Hitler was able to use this.So maybe this brainwashing the German people may be exaggerated and convenient to put the blame on a few individuals.

[Chindie]

35 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Now now...

[blandy]

5 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

I expect now that Rachel Riley knows about that joke she’ll find it too difficult to ever work with the guy again? What with him doing holocaust jokes?

Because she condemned one person for racism, it's only right and proper she be compelled to condemn anyone any time they also do a racism?

Like with muslims right? you know - if an islamic terrorist nutter does a bad thing, it's "only right and proper" that we demand that Faisal, who works in the local vets, issue a statement of condemnation? That's how it works isn't it? Someone does a bad thing, and then we all demand someone else makes some kind of statement and if they haven't immediately done so to our satisfaction, we pile on to them?

Kinder and gentler, right?

[chrisp65]

15 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Now now...

It had occurred to me that some people would find it very easy to turn that post in to me being racist.

But I would be very interested in how someone that doctored a photo and printed a tee shirt would feel about their work colleague doing holocaust jokes.

 

** I’d already posted before Blandy responded and its the Blandy style of response I was expecting. She works with the guy, that’s the difference.

Edited February 5, 2022 by chrisp65

[blandy]

Just now, chrisp65 said:

I would be very interested in how someone that doctored a photo and printed a tee shirt would feel about their work colleague doing holocaust jokes.

It's none of our business how the colleague feels, unless they want to tell us.