Racism Part two

[HanoiVillan]

She's free to do whatever she wants, and so am I. She can keep schtum because she has a different standard for her mates if she wants, that's her right, and similarly it's my right to come to the conclusion that her vaunted principles are an awful lot thinner and more opportunistic than she would maybe wish for people to perceive them as.

[Chindie]

14 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

It had occurred to me that some people would find it very easy to turn that post in to me being racist.

But I would be very interested in how someone that doctored a photo and printed a tee shirt would feel about their work colleague doing holocaust jokes.

 

** I’d already posted before Blandy responded and its the Blandy style of response I was expecting. She works with the guy, that’s the difference.

For the avoidance of doubt I fully support the doctored pictures point. The original picture was grim, wrong, and should have been decried far more. And we know there's no chance of her actually wearing the same shirt with Carr on it.

[blandy]

Just now, HanoiVillan said:

She's free to do whatever she wants

Yeah. Though you'd not know it from looking at Twitter.

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

It's none of our business how the colleague feels, unless they want to tell us.

 

Dipping in and out of what’s private and what’s ok to sling mud at would be a bit of a poor show.

That’s her photo of her edited tee shirt that she published. Now one of her colleagues is in the news for holocaust jokes and the ‘shopper has been ‘shopped. Unintended consequences anyone?

I have zero interest in what Suzi Dent or any of the others on the show think of it. To my knowledge they didn’t opt in to the public discourse.

 

 

[blandy]

37 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Dipping in and out of what’s private and what’s ok to sling mud at would be a bit of a poor show.

Not at all. That's how we all behave. We are free to go on the Twitter and criticise something or someone we feel is wrong, but that doesn't oblige us to do so every time we feel something is not right, or more importantly have others demand we go on twitter and criticise person B because we criticised person A 2 years go.

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, blandy said:

Not at all. That's how we all behave. We are free to go on the Twitter and criticise something or someone we feel is wrong, but that doesn't oblige us to do so every time we feel something is not right, or more importantly have others demand we go on twitter and criticise person B because we criticised person A 2 years go.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not demanding or expecting any sort of public announcement. Of course she has the right not to engage in this story. For what it’s worth, that would be what I’d predict.

Equally, people have a right to point out any inconsistency or double standards. We’re all about double standards at the moment.

I’m more interested in the unintended consequences of her original decision to start making public announcements about other people, when someone close to her (work related) then does what Carr has done. To be clear, I’m not even that interested in Carr’s reaction to this belated outcry. It’s just an interesting example of having a righteous campaign and a blind spot on the same subject.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Davkaus]

Speaking of double standards, the walking disaster we have as culture secretary thinks that Carr's joke was outrageous and ought to be legislated against.

[chrisp65]

7 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Speaking of double standards, the walking disaster we have as culture secretary thinks that Carr's joke was outrageous and ought to be legislated against.

See, I think it’s spectacularly difficult to start legislating on ‘comedy’. You can’t really have a state funded judge of comedy, but you also do need laws on hate speech. It’s an absolute minefield once you get involved in the subject.

I quite like some Frankie Boyle, for the shock value of it. But he does appear to be a bit more for ‘punching up’ from what I’ve seen. I can see how Frankie Boyle would be spectacularly offensive to some. But we can’t try and stop people being offensive. 

Hate speech, laughing at the holocaust, you really are getting close to an edge there. But I wouldn’t want to try and describe where that edge is, in absolute terms.

[blandy]

23 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

To be clear, I’m not even that interested in Carr’s reaction to this belated outcry. It’s just an interesting example of having a righteous campaign and a blind spot on the same subject.

I totally get your point, even if I look at it differently.

I think it's often the case that if we perceive someone to be attacking "us" (in her case Jews) that we will respond, whereas if we perceive someone different to be attacking someone else, then we don't respond nearly as often. I mean great if we do, but there's no problem if (say) instead we privately talk to our friend doing the attacking, or we say nothing to their face, but decide to view them in a different light...or whatever. I'm really not into calling people out for not publicly criticising one person, just because they once criticised a different person. And I'm even less into it, when the people doing it are pretty much all Twitterers with a particular blind spot themselves.

[Chindie]

Its not a shock that, when you engage in a campaign of disparaging a public figure, to varying degrees of misrepresentation, that you get called out when someone you're associated with gets caught out in very related waters to those you were so animated about in one case, and so silent in another.

[blandy]

14 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Its not a shock that, when you engage in a campaign of disparaging a public figure, to varying degrees of misrepresentation, that you get called out when someone you're associated with gets caught out in very related waters to those you were so animated about in one case, and so silent in another.

Oh, I agree that it's no surprise that it's happened. I'd expect nothing less from many of those people.

Of course, applying the same standard to those Twitterers, I could be asking why they are going for RR and not (in many cases) Jimmy Carr. But then again, he hasn't been nasty to their messiah. Jimmy Carr did a racism, "I know let's go after his colleague and slate her, because she was mean to Catweazle".

How about all of them STFU with the hate & stop doing antisemitism and anti Romany stuff and be a bit nicer?

[Davkaus]

51 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I quite like some Frankie Boyle, for the shock value of it. But he does appear to be a bit more for ‘punching up’ from what I’ve seen. I can see how Frankie Boyle would be spectacularly offensive to some.

It's interesting, because I think he was often worse (though I've not seen anything he's done in the best part of a decade. When he aimed at people like Harvey Price and Rebecca Adlington and made insulting jokes at their expense on national TV, it seemed less like comedy, and more like bullying being broadcast by the BBC. He had a habit of making personally targeted comments aimed at individuals, that I think is well over the line, whereas Carr's are deliberately OTT and outrageous comments you know he doesn't believe, he's openly talked during his sets about how he aims for "ooooohs" more than laughs. Humour and offense are fickle subjects though, and I agree we shouldn't be trying to ban offence, but then, we already do in this country.

Personally I think we ought to be free to say anything we like that isn't a genuine threat, harassment or incitement to violence. Legislating offence has always been a nonsense, but we're no strangers to it.

[MakemineVanilla]

1 hour ago, Davkaus said:

Speaking of double standards, the walking disaster we have as culture secretary thinks that Carr's joke was outrageous and ought to be legislated against.

On the subject of comedy, does Chris Rock get a free pass for his set discussing the difference between the N-word and black people?

I loved the set and found it very instructive as to how some African-Americans think about others of the same race.

He certainly was punching down, but I don't know exactly what the rules are.

[bickster]

6 hours ago, Davkaus said:

Speaking of double standards, the walking disaster we have as culture secretary thinks that Carr's joke was outrageous and ought to be legislated against.

She clearly had only heard or read Jimmy Carr did *something* but as usual from Mrs Bootlicker it was just deflection in an attempt to move the narrative onto anything but Johnson

As I type, I have no idea what Carr said nor do I have any desire to find out.

[HanoiVillan]

7 hours ago, blandy said:

Oh, I agree that it's no surprise that it's happened. I'd expect nothing less from many of those people.

Of course, applying the same standard to those Twitterers, I could be asking why they are going for RR and not (in many cases) Jimmy Carr. But then again, he hasn't been nasty to their messiah. Jimmy Carr did a racism, "I know let's go after his colleague and slate her, because she was mean to Catweazle".

I follow a lot of Left Twitter accounts, and I don't recognise that description. I would guess that the balance on my timeline was something like 90% criticising Carr, 10% criticising others for not speaking out.

[chrisp65]

I follow a relatively small number of twitter accounts, low hundreds.

They would be mostly sort of leftish, the ones with a political leaning.

I didn’t see Riley mentioned, other than when I went using the search function. I also don’t see much rabid Corbyn support.

I am fascinated by the Venn of social bubbles though, suddenly discovering a whole section of the internet where there’s an obsessive subject. But I always presume its not real, just bots and mischief makers and the bored all feeding off each other. Easily ignored.

 

 

[mjmooney]

On 05/02/2022 at 08:59, MakemineVanilla said:

I think Edgar Reitz's Heimat showed the slow process of how the population was corrupted.

First off, I LOVE Heimat - it's my single favourite film/TV drama series ever, and I watch the whole thing through every few years. But I'm also confident that it's a revisionist whitewash, intended to imply that most Germans were 'good', and unsympathetic to the Nazis, but helpless victims of the inexorable march of history. All the major characters are contemptuous of the local Nazi party members, who are uniformly portrayed as pompous buffoons. There is never any mention of concentration camps or the holocaust. Maybe, just maybe, that's how it was in the particular cosy Rhineland village where Reitz grew up, but from what I've read, I very much doubt it. It would have been more challenging (but perhaps too controversial) to acknowledge the widespread 'passive' support of Naziism, and try to show how it came about. 

[MakemineVanilla]

2 hours ago, mjmooney said:

First off, I LOVE Heimat - it's my single favourite film/TV drama series ever, and I watch the whole thing through every few years. But I'm also confident that it's a revisionist whitewash, intended to imply that most Germans were 'good', and unsympathetic to the Nazis, but helpless victims of the inexorable march of history. All the major characters are contemptuous of the local Nazi party members, who are uniformly portrayed as pompous buffoons. There is never any mention of concentration camps or the holocaust. Maybe, just maybe, that's how it was in the particular cosy Rhineland village where Reitz grew up, but from what I've read, I very much doubt it. It would have been more challenging (but perhaps too controversial) to acknowledge the widespread 'passive' support of Naziism, and try to show how it came about. 

As Heimat was made for German consumption, whitewashing was inevitable.

The Allies were expedient enough to forgive them just about everything, and only about 200 were executed at Nuremberg.

 

[El Zen]

A talking head in Norwegian media channeled an old VT meme when commenting on the infamous Jimmy Carr joke: «I was with him until the punchline», said Carl Vogt at the Norwegian Holocaust Centre. 
 

[El Zen]

FWIW, I’m not a big Jimmy Carr fan, but I thought the joke was funny. And obviously anti racist. Is satire becoming impossible? 

Edited February 9, 2022 by El Zen