Racism Part two

[Panto_Villan]

5 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said:

I don't think CRT is that complicated and that most of its prolixity arises from establishing its origins in postmodernism.

I believe Goldberg has taken on some of the dogma of CRT, which states that to be guilty of racism, the person has to be in a position of power or privilege; this is how she reached the conclusion that the holocaust had nothing to do with racism, but was just one privileged class persecuting another privileged class.

This is why some people think CRT is dangerous because its logic leads people to "mispeak", after absorbing its tenets and following its logic to an unfortunate end.

Yeah, from what I skimmed of the topic it seemed like the point she was (clumsily) trying to make was that the Holocaust wasn't racism in the way racism is currently percieved, which is heavily based on skin colour - i.e. it was people who look white doing it to other people that look white. But obviously what she said was totally untrue and does an enormous disservice to any of the minorities caught up in the Holocaust.

The facts of the matter sort of loop back round to an oblique criticism of CRT for me. The David Baddiel clip above is excellent and explains about Jews being treated as a distinct ethnic and cultural group rather than any of it being based on their actual religion. But the same applies to say the division between Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, where it's possible to identify people as belonging to one side or the other simply by looking at their name and to treat them differently as a result (irrespective of whether anyone involved is actually religious or not). Almost everyone in both groups is white, but it's still racism.

But that type of racism doesn't necessarily map very well to the principles of CRT which are tied more heavily to the idea of priviledge and skin colour. It's an unhelpfully narrow theory imo; it actually doesn't seem to map very well to anything beyond majority-white developed nations. So I guess I agree that anyone who views racism predominantly through the lens of CRT is probably going to get into trouble and come to incorrect conclusions when they look at historical examples of racism.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Panto_Villan

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Mister_a said:

Well if people want to be idiots and not relate to people as they meet them on whether they are good people or not, that's up to them.

It's true

I watched Joe Rogan, I decided he was a word removed

[Follyfoot]

3 minutes ago, Xann said:

Londoners in London bang on about pie and mash shops. They're not that common anymore.

Deliveroo has probably been a boon to P&M lovers as the vast majority of Londoners aren't within walking distance of one?

Even less common as well so I’m told are the ones that do Thames eels as well. I wonder if Deliveroo deliver these bad boys, Rancid muck

Will continue in the food thread 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Follyfoot

[Mister_a]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

It's true

I watched Joe Rogan, I decided he was a word removed

That's entirely your call, the world would be insufferably worse if we all thought the same.

[Chindie]

Worth noting that the crux of what Whoopi has said, essentially that Jews are just white people of a different faith and not a race, only a few years ago, was acceptably discussed on this site.

She's been daft, she's had a wrist slapped, the end.

[Wainy316]

Is there any reasoning as to why Whoopi adopted a Jewish surname or is all this a coincidence?

[Panto_Villan]

1 hour ago, Wainy316 said:

Is there any reasoning as to why Whoopi adopted a Jewish surname or is all this a coincidence?

I didn't actually even know that wasn't her birth name until you posted that - but Wikipedia has this to say on the issue:

Quote

About her stage surname, she claimed in 2011, "My mother did not name me Whoopi, but Goldberg is my name—it's part of my family, part of my heritage, just like being black", and "I just know I am Jewish. I practice nothing. I don't go to temple, but I do remember the holidays."^[16] She has stated that "people would say 'Come on, are you Jewish?' And I always say 'Would you ask me that if I was white? I bet not.'"^[16] One account recalls that her mother, Emma Johnson, thought the family's original surname was "not Jewish enough" for her daughter to become a star.^[16] Researcher Henry Louis Gates Jr. found that all of Goldberg's traceable ancestors were African Americans, that she had no known German or Jewish ancestry, and that none of her ancestors were named Goldberg.^[12] Results of a DNA test, revealed in the 2006 PBS documentary African American Lives, traced part of her ancestry to the Papel and Bayote people of modern-day Guinea-Bissau. Her admixture test indicates that she is of 92 percent sub-Saharan African origin and of 8 percent European origin.^[17]

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Panto_Villan
added a link to the Wiki article

[Sam-AVFC]

Weird that the tweets @Seat68 posted showing video examples of extremely problematic language used by Joe Rogan are just being ignored.

[a m ole]

2 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Weird that the tweets @Seat68 posted showing video examples of extremely problematic language used by Joe Rogan are just being ignored.

It’s ok, Dave Chapelle gave him a pass.

[magnkarl]

4 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Weird that the tweets @Seat68 posted showing video examples of extremely problematic language used by Joe Rogan are just being ignored.

You see, Joe Rogan knows a token Jew and Afro American. He’s entitled to be a racist apparently, also you need to hear 9000 hours of his podcast to get the context. Or alternatively call him out for what he is. An extremely privileged man with a massive audience being an absolute tool. How he has so many fans just describes a lot of the issues around race in especially majority groups.

‘My hero JR said a funny word so now I’ll say it too.’

’My hero pwediepie paid actors to hold up a sign saying death to all Jews but that was just satire! You don’t get the context.’ 

Luckily there’s voices of reason out there, however they’re becoming more and more unpopular amongst the people with a lack of critical thinking.

[Mister_a]

7 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Luckily there’s voices of reason out there, however they’re becoming more and more unpopular amongst the people with a lack of critical thinking.

Who would you say is out there that is a voice of reason (in your opinion)? I'd like to hear what they have to say.

[magnkarl]

6 minutes ago, Mister_a said:

Who would you say is out there that is a voice of reason (in your opinion)? I'd like to hear what they have to say.

If you want to listen to scientists on a podcast who are actually peer reviewed discuss their fields I’d start with decoding the gurus. They’ve got two episodes on the actual crap that JR likes to spout quite recently.

Just so you’re warned, there aren’t any stone heads blurting out racist words or need to listen to 3000 episodes to ‘get it’.

[fruitvilla]

I caught the CNN headlines on this Whoopi thing the other night ... "The Holocaust was not about Race".  My immediate reaction was, in what ways was she right and in what ways was she wrong? Not that she needed to apologize for an opinion or needed to have her wrists slapped.  Another person would have lost their jobs for having a "problematic" opinion.

Currently reading McWhorter's Woke Racism ... mostly American but definitely worth a read.

[Mister_a]

Just now, magnkarl said:

If you want to listen to scientists on a podcast who are actually peer reviewed discuss their fields I’d start with decoding the gurus. They’ve got two episodes on the actual crap that JR likes to spout quite recently.

Cheers, I'll give it a listen.

Quote

Just so you’re warned, there aren’t any stone heads blurting out racist words or need to listen to 3000 episodes to ‘get it’.

Not sure the sarcasm is helpful here.

[Mister_a]

1 minute ago, fruitvilla said:

I caught the CNN headlines on this Whoopi thing the other night ... "The Holocaust was not about Race".  My immediate reaction was, in what ways was she right and in what ways was she wrong? Not that she needed to apologize for an opinion or needed to have her wrists slapped.  Another person would have lost their jobs for having a "problematic" opinion.

Currently reading McWhorter's Woke Racism ... mostly American but definitely worth a read.

I'd rather no one lost their jobs for opinions, good or bad. It's all part of conversation and idea exchange. 

I think the main problem of late is the wilful bad faith interpretation of utterances by others, i.e. I'm going to take the most spiteful uncharitable interpretation of what you said and throw it out onto social media to see who piles on. That kind of toxic poison is apparent on both ends of the political spectrum, and could do with being fired into the sun.

 

[Panto_Villan]

3 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

I caught the CNN headlines on this Whoopi thing the other night ... "The Holocaust was not about Race".  My immediate reaction was, in what ways was she right and in what ways was she wrong? Not that she needed to apologize for an opinion or needed to have her wrists slapped.  Another person would have lost their jobs for having a "problematic" opinion.

Currently reading McWhorter's Woke Racism ... mostly American but definitely worth a read.

She was wrong in the sense that the sentences she said were factually wrong, because the Holocaust was definitely about racism. Based purely on the words she said, I don't think she was right about anything. 

I think it's fair to be expected to make a public apology if you're a celebrity and you've claimed on air that an attempted extermination of an ethnic group on the basis of belonging to that ethnic group wasn't racist, because you're wrong and disseminating misinformation about one of the most significant historical examples of racism.

That said, I'm not sure that anything more than that needs to be done. Sometimes people mess up their phrasing, and sometimes people are just misinformed. If the apology is genuine I think it should suffice.

[Mister_a]

Thought this was interesting too - in relation to banned books, censorship etc.

 

[Chindie]

Without knowing the entirety of Whoopi Goldberg's career and views, my impression is she's generally someone on the right side of history, so to speak, so her being patently stupid on this its probably enough for her to hold her hands up, have a slap on the wrist and move on.

[fruitvilla]

19 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

She was wrong in the sense that the sentences she said were factually wrong, because the Holocaust was definitely about racism. Based purely on the words she said, I don't think she was right about anything. 

Well the thoughts that crossed my mind were:

• Could it have been about religion, Jews killing Christ 'n all. Not that Hitler cared about Christianity?
• Could it been about the Jews disproportionate success in society?
• Simply different habits and customs?
• Looking for a scapegoat?

One one hand we have people saying there is no such thing as race and then those same people turn around and say it is all about race? Maybe you are right it's social Darwinism gone mad? Most of the people carrying out the atrocities would have been Lutherans and Catholics not some vague religionist in the upper echelons. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by fruitvilla

[fruitvilla]

22 minutes ago, Mister_a said:

I think the main problem of late is the wilful bad faith interpretation of utterances by others

Possibly, but I suspect it is a fair bit more complicated than that. We would be advised to take a look at how the brain takes hold of ideas and implements them.