Racism Part two

[bickster]

1 minute ago, foreveryoung said:

Rumour is, he gave as good as he got.

Ah there we go, attempting to tarnish someones name with unstated and unsubstantiated rumours. Brilliant

He gave as good as he got sounds like the rapist saying she was asking for it

 

[Davkaus]

I think the key thing to remember is that even if this guy has done much worse than this one message, someone being a scumbag doesn't invalidate the things he's brought to light.

[foreveryoung]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

Ah there we go, attempting to tarnish someones name with unstated and unsubstantiated rumours. Brilliant

He gave as good as he got sounds like the rapist saying she was asking for it

 

There are 2 sides, but are we to believe everything he says and nothing that no one else says. As I said, I'm sure more will come out of this, it's already starting with his historical tweet.

I'm far from trying to justify the racism he endured though?

Edited November 18, 2021 by foreveryoung

[chrisp65]

[bickster]

18 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

There are 2 sides,

There you go again

[blandy]

15 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I think the key thing to remember is that even if this guy has done much worse than this one message, someone being a scumbag doesn't invalidate the things he's brought to light.

That's true.

That said, Michael Vaughan for example is said to have spoken in a dressing room to some of his team, or the Yorkshire team "there's too many of you lot". Now that might be taken as kind of "there are too many asian players in here" in a very racist sense. It also might be taken (meant as) as humorous within an exchange, but (obviously) not received as such by the asian players. He's probably going to lose his job over a remark made a decade ago or longer that he doesn't remember. I don't particularly like Vaughan as a commentator/pundit, but there is a kind of double standard at play, a bit. He shouldn't have said it, but sometimes if no offence is meant, that needs to be taken into account.

So IMO they were both wrong to have done their "jokes" (if they did), but neither deserves vilification for it if they either are contrite or if they genuinely don't recall making a throw away light hearted commented 15 years ago, or whenever. Vaughan should apologise, I think.

Caveat: if Vaughan said it and meant it in a genuinely racist way, then that change things.

[bobzy]

28 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

There are 2 sides, but are we to believe everything he says and nothing that no one else says. As I said, I'm sure more will come out of this, it's already starting with his historical tweet.

I'm far from trying to justify the racism he endured though?

So vague. What have you heard? What else is coming out?

Have we moved on to having racism ITKs now?

[sharkyvilla]

Just now, blandy said:

That's true.

That said, Michael Vaughan for example is said to have spoken in a dressing room to some of his team, or the Yorkshire team "there's too many of you lot". Now that might be taken as kind of "there are too many asian players in here" in a very racist sense. It also might be taken (meant as) as humorous within an exchange, but (obviously) not received as such by the asian players. He's probably going to lose his job over a remark made a decade ago or longer that he doesn't remember. I don't particularly like Vaughan as a commentator/pundit, but there is a kind of double standard at play, a bit. He shouldn't have said it, but sometimes if no offence is meant, that needs to be taken into account.

So IMO they were both wrong to have done their "jokes" (if they did), but neither deserves vilification for it if they either are contrite or if they genuinely don't recall making a throw away light hearted commented 15 years ago, or whenever. Vaughan should apologise, I think.

Caveat: if Vaughan said it and meant it in a genuinely racist way, then that change things.

I was literally going to say the same thing about Vaughan.  I can imagine myself in the same scenario, being proud to be in a team with 4 Asian players for the first time ever at a club that's been notoriously slow in adapting to changes in society, shaking their hands and congratulating them.  Then saying 'but yeah, there are too many of you and we have to do something about that '.  Obviously the trollface is a key element in the whole exchange.  I don't like Vaughan as a commentator at all but there aren't really people coming out of the woodwork with anecdotes about him being racist.  A few gammon provocateur Twitter posts maybe.  

[PaulC]

No of course it doesn't excuse any form of racism but it makes him out to a bit of a hypocrite and yes he was young but he must have known he sent these tweets and has only apologised after being found out.  

[Jareth]

42 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

No one is saying it justifies the racism he endured. But I'm expecting more to come out on him. Rumour is, he gave as good as he got.

Awful for all those cricketers from white backgrounds who Rafiq and his majority discriminated against. Nevermind at least Rafiq has a highly paid job and a network of likeminded racists to fall back on. 

[Davkaus]

14 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

I was literally going to say the same thing about Vaughan.  I can imagine myself in the same scenario, being proud to be in a team with 4 Asian players for the first time ever at a club that's been notoriously slow in adapting to changes in society, shaking their hands and congratulating them.  Then saying 'but yeah, there are too many of you and we have to do something about that '.  Obviously the trollface is a key element in the whole exchange.  I don't like Vaughan as a commentator at all but there aren't really people coming out of the woodwork with anecdotes about him being racist.  A few gammon provocateur Twitter posts maybe.  

It's the kind of thing I could see myself saying to my aussie or Irish coworkers, but wouldn't dream of saying to the Indian people in the team, which is probably a bit prejudiced now I think about it  

[sharkyvilla]

2 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

It's the kind of thing I could see myself saying to my aussie or Irish coworkers, but wouldn't dream of saying to the Indian people in the team, which is probably a bit prejudiced now I think about it  

I totally understand that.  You have to know your audience.  Almost everyone on here makes jokes with all sorts of dark, stereotypical humour that if picked up in black and white could be used against us.  There is a difference between that and holding down a Muslim (or anyone) and making them drink wine.  Vaughan and a few others are getting lobbed in with the others at the moment.  I'm not sure what going back and digging up dirt really does, the key is changing the culture now and people just not being dickheads.

[Stevo985]

15 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

I'm far from trying to justify the racism he endured though?

Not as far as you think

[foreveryoung]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

Not as far as you think

Oh yeah I forgot, because I don't back Azeem fuly I must be racist myself, the same as not agreeing with taking the knee, what a hard core racist I must be???

[chrisp65]

9 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Oh yeah I forgot, because I don't back Azeem fuly I must be racist myself, the same as not agreeing with taking the knee, what a hard core racist I must be???

What do you mean you don’t ‘back’ him? Are you saying you doubt his story in some way? You’ve already suggested there was more to come out, was that guess work on your part or do you know something you don’t feel you want to share yet?

I don’t think anyone has offered him up as some Jesus figure, so what is it you don’t ‘back’. He had already said people make mistakes and it should be possible to apologise, learn, and move on. His issue has been with denial of racism where there is evidence and a lack of desire to face it. What is it about that you can’t ‘back’?

It doesn’t have to be a zero sum game. It can be all of us on a learning curve.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

because I don't back Azeem 

Told ya

[bobzy]

Still waiting for the racism ITK.  I'm quite excited.

[Jareth]

2 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Oh yeah I forgot, because I don't back Azeem fuly I must be racist myself, the same as not agreeing with taking the knee, what a hard core racist I must be???

Have you ever suffered discrimination in any shape or form? 

[foreveryoung]

3 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Still waiting for the racism ITK.  I'm quite excited.

I was taking about more to come out on Azeem. But with the bias, no one will elbe able to say anything against him now, especially in the media.

[StefanAVFC]

2 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Have you ever suffered discrimination in any shape or form? 

He probably thinks black lives matter is discriminatory against white people to be honest, based on previous posts.