Dean Smith

[Vive_La_Villa]

On topic is so depressing the week after a bad defeat. We need a performance and result so badly against Brighton. 
 

Come on Smith. We have faith in you. 

[Kiwivillan]

7 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

On topic is so depressing the week after a bad defeat. We need a performance and result so badly against Brighton. 
 

Come on Smith. We have faith in you. 

Brighton are a very good team at home. Would be ridiculous to have go at Smith if don't come away with at least a point. I really need to take break from the forum and FB if we don't 

[Bugzy1991]

The most disappointing part of this season and Smith is our inability to play against 10men. How many games have teams been to 10men and how many points we got? 

Has there been any other team that's played against 10men as much as we have? We should be doing better tbh.

[TRO]

6 hours ago, Bugzy1991 said:

The most disappointing part of this season and Smith is our inability to play against 10men. How many games have teams been to 10men and how many points we got? 

Has there been any other team that's played against 10men as much as we have? We should be doing better tbh.

Its the nature of the side.....too many lack fight and don't go for the jugular.

Hopefully Dean has Identified it and changes will come....We need more performances like Burnley away.

[TRO]

6 hours ago, Kiwivillan said:

Brighton are a very good team at home. Would be ridiculous to have go at Smith if don't come away with at least a point. I really need to take break from the forum and FB if we don't 

Win at home draw away, we will stay up.

[TRO]

6 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

On topic is so depressing the week after a bad defeat. We need a performance and result so badly against Brighton. 

Come on Smith. We have faith in you. 

Its inevitable.....but its not the comments, but the facts that stare us in the face during the game, that matter.

What fans write on here is their opinion, it should in theory not affect any of us......some could write we was fantastic against Man City, that would not please me.

The facts are the facts as we see it.......opinions are opinions.

We need consistency, not the odd win to keep us out of the quicksand.

We can beat Brighton, but only if we stay disciplined and work for the team, if we apply ourselves correctly, we can beat lots of teams.

That 87 minutes against Liverpool, proves to me "we can do it".......we need to find that level of performance more through to the end of the season.

Lets just hope we can get reinforcements in, which should help.

Edited January 16, 2020 by TRO

[Made In Aston]

23 hours ago, terrytini said:

Well, it’s all about opinions,

And everyone knows my opinion is the right one . Smith wants to play possession football, so you need players who can keep the ball under pressure and pass accurately to team mates. Our stats possession stats alone show we can't do this. Watching matches confirms it! 

I agree our players are better suited to defending deep and putting their bodies on the line. If only we had pace up front then we would could be a decent counter attacking team, rather than a bad possession-based one. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

I’ve seen many critics of Smith suggest that we had one of the best Squads in the Championship so any manager should have got us promoted. But if that was the case why did we get rid of 15 players? If we were so surely we would ready for the top flight? 

[Tomaszk]

Delighted to read this from the boss...

Quote

We're guaranteed 42,000 each week, it's a sell-out at Villa Park every time we play there. They've got to handle that. Part of that criteria we look at is players who can handle that.

In some ways we're a pain to get players for. We're bad, but the club is big, so expectations are high.

So many players in recent times have crumpled here, when they've looked like decent players elsewhere. It's so hard to change the mindset, takes years and years. It took years to damage, but we managed it somehow.

[Laughable Chimp]

54 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I’ve seen many critics of Smith suggest that we had one of the best Squads in the Championship so any manager should have got us promoted. But if that was the case why did we get rid of 15 players? If we were so surely we would ready for the top flight? 

We actually got rid of something like 20 players, but most of them were academy graduates or aging fringe players. We had a lot of fat that needed trimming. I think best squad statement was more in reference to our first 11.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Laughable Chimp

[avfc1982am]

22 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I’ve seen many critics of Smith suggest that we had one of the best Squads in the Championship so any manager should have got us promoted. But if that was the case why did we get rid of 15 players? If we were so surely we would ready for the top flight? 

What's having a decent squad got to do with having to losing 15 members of it? Just because the squad is made up of loans, elderly players, those out of contract in the near future, doesn't mean it's not good.

I'm not a "critic" of Smith on this particular subject at all as nobody could be, however we did have one of the best squads in the championship imo. We had several of the best players, in Grealish, McGinn, Abraham and later Mings, easily. We also had some crap to as did most teams but nobody can say those mentioned as with the likes of Ghazi and Axel, Hourihane, Kodjia, Albert, chester early  etc that we didn't have one of the better 11's if not necessarily the best squad as Norwich proved. We most definitely had the best player without doubt. Our failure after summer uncertainty was recruitment in certain areas and a manager that lost his way before Dean came in to help resurrect the players. I do think though we had some exceptional players in a division below their level as it has proved this season. 

 

 

[Zatman]

We only had Mings for 3 months, Grealish was out another 3 months.

Hutton, Nyland, Taylor, Adomah, Green, Elmo, Bolasie all played in a lot of games. Was not really a great squad 

[ciggiesnbeer]

Bloody hell Bolasie. I do NOT miss that guy. Good luck shifting that dead weight Everton.

[A'Villan]

I might get shot down for this, but I'm just sharing an observation.

I've been considering our 4-3-3 approach that Smith adopts, as I like the philosophy behind it.

With adequate positioning, timing of overlapping runs and incisiveness of layoff passes and one-two's, chances are created.

So it's nothing new that defensively we can be exposed by committing players forward and overloading our attacking half.

At times our last line of defense rests near the center circle and is only two men strong, which is a nightmare should we get caught in transition.

So anyway, nothing new or insightful to add there, we saw it become less problematic as the Championship season progressed, and hopefully same for the PL one too.

What I find interesting, and which I wasn't aware of prior to today, was that we were undefeated playing 4-3-3 in the championship, with an over 50% win rate (6W 5D 0L).

4-3-3 this season has us with 3W 3D 8L, so quite considerably poorer whether you look at it statistically or should you have watched the games, there's a difference in plzy.

There's an obvious difference between the two seasons that is we have conceded OVER 2 goals per game on avg playing 4-3-3 this season.

So without making this another essay length post I'll cut to the chase, shoot me down if you will, the difference is Grealish playing an advanced role.

Hear me out, I won't be long (doubtful but hey), With a midfield three that consisted of Grealish AND McGinn, transition from defense to attack via midfield was great.

We could play it out from the back with a confidence that as long as one of Grealish or McGinn received it at their feet, we'd then challenge in our attacking half as a result.

Hourihane simply played the position of being a passing option and aiding the passage of play through defensive lines by being a viable option for a one-two or the like.

Anyway, once into midfield we could be confident that McGinn or Grealish would either gain more territory for us either by playing a good pass onto one of the forwards, or dribbling.

In our current system, especially now with McGinn out, that whole system goes out the window. I can see what Smith has tried to tweak, but we simply don't have that quality in midfield.

Not of the kind of ball control and retention that we saw with the quality of Grealish in a deeper role last season, on that way the ball actually got up the field to our forwards.

And in turn we conceded less, because we were on the ball more, but also because our game plan allowed us a footing in every contest.

So not only have we entered a tougher division in every aspect of the game, we've weakened the pivotal link between defense and attack by playing Grealish forward.

Luiz is skillful enough to play in that three, but Hourihane is only an asset as long as the system is functional, he's not got the individual ability to take games on himself.

Marvelous, from my line of sight, is only really useful in a midfield 3 if he has a more defensive mindset, and let's others focus on getting forward.

I know Grealish is going to do his best work in a free attacking role with license to make reads and plays as he sees fit, but I think midfield isn't anywhere near the same without him.

 

 

[KentVillan]

17 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

What I find interesting, and which I wasn't aware of prior to today, was that we were undefeated playing 4-3-3 in the championship, with an over 50% win rate (6W 5D 0L).

4-3-3 this season has us with 3W 3D 8L, so quite considerably poorer whether you look at it statistically or should you have watched the games, there's a difference in plzy.

There's an obvious difference between the two seasons that is we have conceded OVER 2 goals per game on avg playing 4-3-3 this season.

This is surely down to the same formation being variously described as 4-3-3, 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1? We definitely were not unbeaten playing 4-3-3 last season.

[holteend1982]

20 hours ago, Kiwivillan said:

Brighton are a very good team at home. Would be ridiculous to have go at Smith if don't come away with at least a point. I really need to take break from the forum and FB if we don't 

Won 4 drew 4 lost 3, I'd hardly call that very good at home. Smith has shown he is incapable of beating any of the top 6 sides so the points have to come from those teams around us. If it's another poor performance fans are more than within their rights to have a go at Smith for not getting anything. 

[M_Afro]

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

I might get shot down for this, but I'm just sharing an observation.

I've been considering our 4-3-3 approach that Smith adopts, as I like the philosophy behind it.

With adequate positioning, timing of overlapping runs and incisiveness of layoff passes and one-two's, chances are created.

So it's nothing new that defensively we can be exposed by committing players forward and overloading our attacking half.

At times our last line of defense rests near the center circle and is only two men strong, which is a nightmare should we get caught in transition.

So anyway, nothing new or insightful to add there, we saw it become less problematic as the Championship season progressed, and hopefully same for the PL one too.

What I find interesting, and which I wasn't aware of prior to today, was that we were undefeated playing 4-3-3 in the championship, with an over 50% win rate (6W 5D 0L).

4-3-3 this season has us with 3W 3D 8L, so quite considerably poorer whether you look at it statistically or should you have watched the games, there's a difference in plzy.

There's an obvious difference between the two seasons that is we have conceded OVER 2 goals per game on avg playing 4-3-3 this season.

So without making this another essay length post I'll cut to the chase, shoot me down if you will, the difference is Grealish playing an advanced role.

Hear me out, I won't be long (doubtful but hey), With a midfield three that consisted of Grealish AND McGinn, transition from defense to attack via midfield was great.

We could play it out from the back with a confidence that as long as one of Grealish or McGinn received it at their feet, we'd then challenge in our attacking half as a result.

Hourihane simply played the position of being a passing option and aiding the passage of play through defensive lines by being a viable option for a one-two or the like.

Anyway, once into midfield we could be confident that McGinn or Grealish would either gain more territory for us either by playing a good pass onto one of the forwards, or dribbling.

In our current system, especially now with McGinn out, that whole system goes out the window. I can see what Smith has tried to tweak, but we simply don't have that quality in midfield.

Not of the kind of ball control and retention that we saw with the quality of Grealish in a deeper role last season, on that way the ball actually got up the field to our forwards.

And in turn we conceded less, because we were on the ball more, but also because our game plan allowed us a footing in every contest.

So not only have we entered a tougher division in every aspect of the game, we've weakened the pivotal link between defense and attack by playing Grealish forward.

Luiz is skillful enough to play in that three, but Hourihane is only an asset as long as the system is functional, he's not got the individual ability to take games on himself.

Marvelous, from my line of sight, is only really useful in a midfield 3 if he has a more defensive mindset, and let's others focus on getting forward.

I know Grealish is going to do his best work in a free attacking role with license to make reads and plays as he sees fit, but I think midfield isn't anywhere near the same without him.

 

 

To play 4-3-3 you need really good box to box full backs and 2 physical/disciplined defensive midfield players. Both of these need the ability to receive the ball in tight spots and also move it on quickly. You also need pace in the front 3 to push the defence back and keep them honest.

We are not quite there in those areas yet so away and at home against the better teams 5-3-2 gives us a more stable option. Otherwise we concede way too many shots on goal. Although it is still a weakness in 5-3-2 we are at least not quite so open.

[KenjiOgiwara]

17 minutes ago, M_Afro said:

To play 4-3-3 you need really good box to box full backs and 2 physical/disciplined defensive midfield players. Both of these need the ability to receive the ball in tight spots and also move it on quickly. You also need pace in the front 3 to push the defence back and keep them honest.

We are not quite there in those areas yet so away and at home against the better teams 5-3-2 gives us a more stable option. Otherwise we concede way too many shots on goal. Although it is still a weakness in 5-3-2 we are at least not quite so open.

I don't think that's entirely correct. 

The best 433 I've seen was Rosenborg in the mid 90s. You're talking about a bunch of Norwegians from the same region of Norway that beat any team they met in Europe, advancing into the QF of the CL if I remember correctly.

The really fundamental thing about 433 is that it's essentially a 451 when defending. So for me the key positions are wings, fullbacks (as you say), and the two more advanced central midfielders.

Due to the need of attacking input from central midfield, the 433 requires a lot of runs from the advanced midfielders (or box2box players), which means they have to have the legs for it, as well as the quality.

The transition to a 451 means the wingers need a really good engine and legs to cover the ground required. 

And like you say the fullbacks need to contribute to create space for the runs from midfield. 

It's very much amazing potential in the tactic, but the Rosenborg I remember not only had ridiculous work ethic and high fitness, they also had players that played together year and after year. They knew each others every move and could basically move the ball into space blindly and that's ofc a challenge for us when we signed a new team over one summer. 

But runs from midfield into the box and good wingers are essential, as is off ball movement. And I mean wingers, proper wingers with pace, a cross and the work ethic to move it along. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by KenjiOgiwara

[A'Villan]

1 hour ago, KentVillan said:

This is surely down to the same formation being variously described as 4-3-3, 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1? We definitely were not unbeaten playing 4-3-3 last season.

While I will take your word for it regarding not being unbeaten playing 4-3-3, it is most definitely distinct from 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1.

I mean it's a completely different system, and requires a totally different emphasis in tactics and roles from the other 3.

If I remember I'll try and check that the specific games, because it makes a lot of sense to me, not that we'd of been undefeated necessarily, but that we'd fare better.

A midfield of McGinn and Grealish, with Hourihane fulfilling a role, would turnover the ball far less than the midfield 3's we've had this season.

In case you're interested, the formation and personnel:

Steer

Elmo - Axel - Mings - Taylor

McGinn - Conor - Grealish

Adomah -Tammy - El Ghazi

The record under this system:

Played: 11 Won 6 Drawn 5 Lost 0 Goals For 24 Goals Conceded 16

And there's stats for the other formations you mentioned in there too.

 

[KentVillan]

21 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

While I will take your word for it regarding not being unbeaten playing 4-3-3, it is most definitely distinct from 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1.

I mean it's a completely different system, and requires a totally different emphasis in tactics and roles from the other 3.

What looks like a 4-3-3 against crap opposition looks more like a 4-1-4-1 against good opposition, since the wingers get pinned back. It’s splitting hairs.