Dean Smith

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, Zatman said:

We have scred more goals than Sheffield United this season so the strikers they have probably wouldnt improve us so much. We have conceded 22 more goals than them but they have an organised well drilled defensive structure

 

8 minutes ago, Zatman said:

We have scred more goals than Sheffield United this season so the strikers they have probably wouldnt improve us so much. We have conceded 22 more goals than them but they have an organised well drilled defensive structure

thank you and ( thats where the problem lies) they have been like that for some time, with players no better than ours.....yes being together for that time has helped, but they have been together, because it works......i.e what comes first the chicken or the egg?

Our defensive structure ( not just the back line) has been poor for some time way before Dean Smith and we have failed incrementally to fix it.

sure we have made attempts with new players IMO that have not been up to the task.

I think we have left it too late, even if they can see it.....but we will see.

ps How many games have we failed to score this season, I haven't checked, but I would say not many?

 

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by TRO

[TRO]

10 minutes ago, Zatman said:

We have scred more goals than Sheffield United this season so the strikers they have probably wouldnt improve us so much. We have conceded 22 more goals than them but they have an organised well drilled defensive structure

He was just a random example, I wasn't just picking out a striker.....he was one of the last to join, was my point.

[TRO]

I will be really disappointed if we go down......but in a twisted sort of way that Man city game, might have woke up many folk at the club.....in which case it might be a godsend.

If many can say, we haven't got a striker, which is true......we haven't got a midfield either despite having possibly one of the best midfielders in the country.

Edited January 16, 2020 by TRO

[Tomaszk]

32 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

To be fair our fans would probably be slaughtering McBurnie had we signed him if his current return of 4 goals in 20 games was the same with us. 

Depends what his performances were like I imagine.

If they were as poor as Wes', yes he'd be getting slated. If he had no goals but was playing as well as zero-goals David McGoldrick for example, he'd be getting plenty of praise.

[Villarocker]

Despite the many things people are starting to beat Deano up over, I'm sure that a lot of people, the vast majority, must have some sympathy for him with the forward situation. We're facing three of our biggest rivals for survival in the next week or so and we are heading into them without firepower. 

Spurs have apparently done a deal to loan Gedson Fernandes. I assume that they paid a fee and will sign him permanently at the end of the season. Can Villa not do something similar? Pay say £4m or £5m now and agree to pay the rest in the summer. Let's face it, we can afford it then. Stay up and we have next seasons TV money. Go down and we'll have the money from the sales of Grealish, McGinn, Mings etc. 

Surely our money men can get a bit creative in order to help Deano and the lads out. 

[markavfc40]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

but its paradoxical Mark.

Sheff Utd have stayed together in the 3 divisions, because its working, their blue print works...they are not great individuals, but the team works......some would say how can a division one assembled team sit in the top 10 of the Premiership for half a season.

you only have to watch them play and compare to us.....its clear.

We in contrast are always changing players, because we are struggling to get it to work, we will always have this argument of settling in time the way we are going.

I agree with everything you say here but none of that was Smiths fault was it. He came in 16 months ago. If memory serves me correct we signed two players on loan in his fist transfer window in Hause and Mings. Both have now signed permanently.

It wasn't Smith fault that the squad he inherited had so many players with either their best years well behind them, Whelan. Jedinak, Adomah, Elphick, Richards, Hutton, McCormack, Bunn (all of whom were out of contract in the summer) or players that were struggling at Championship level never mind being able to progress and play in the Premier League, Hogan, Bree, Tshibola, Bjarnasson etc. You could even argue the likes of Lansbury, Kodjia, Taylor, Chester and Elmo even though we kept them are all now on the wane and probably not good enough for this level and certainly given their age aren't going to improve.

The club have tried to buy players over the summer that have shown potential and have their best years in front of them and I think they should be applauded for that. There was probably a balance to be struck though and 2 or 3 players with proven pedigree at this level should have come in also. Whether due to the amount of players we needed to bring in meant buying players proven at this level wasn't possible I don't know. The club do seem to be trying to remedy that lack of experience in this window though.

Regardless of whether we go down or stay up I think a number of the players we have purchased over the summer will improve and be better players over the next year or 2 and will either be integral in getting us back up or be capable of holding their own in the top flight either with us or elsewhere. I certainly see that being the case with Konsa, Hause, Targett, Guilbert, Luiz and El Ghazi. 

In the summer it seems that we brought in players that could hopefully hold their own this season and keep us up and would also improve over time and that could be part of our squad over a number of years. Trying to build something and not have a squad of short term fixes. The keeping us up this season part is proving as hard as many of us feared though.

[LakotaDakota]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

ps How many games have we failed to score this season, I haven't checked, but I would say not many?

5 - Palace, West Ham, City, Sheff Utd, Watford.

Might not look much but it is just under 23% of our games played.

Goals scored isn't really the issue though, There are still only 8 teams that have scored more goals than us but conceding just about 2 goals per game on average is completely killing us and it's getting worse. Our last 10 games have seen us concede 23 times, 13 of these are in the last 5 matches.

Edited January 15, 2020 by LakotaDakota

[Zatman]

We technically scored vs Palace

[A'Villan]

What I fear regarding Smith, and has been noted in recent posting in this thread, is that the pressure to get it right, in time, sees us fall short, because we spread ourselves thin.

The balance between a focus on gaining points on the board, and developing an approach that will see us play our best football, is like walking a tight-rope.

Overstep on either side of the line and you find yourself falling, needing to pick yourself up, dust off, an try again, instead of building momentum and moving along to the next step.

Smith has been up against it since he took over in the championship, the pressure and expectation for success doesn't make his job easier, and now we're in the PL it's even harder.

As I have outlined in numerous posts, and @markavfc40 has also highlighted just now, and like other posters have said, Smith is not the cause of, or to blame for every inadequacy.

When you account for and compare the different situations of the various clubs, Smith has got to have one of the toughest in the league, and that's not making excuses for him.

Making excuses for him is when we suggest he is not up to the challenge, not because that is the case, because we don't want to continue to face the challenges in the same way.

Hoping that we acquire a better manager, or wanting us to sack Smith to explore potential through others, does not in the slightest make safe ground for Smith being ill-equipped.

I just hope Smith can see beyond the weekly pressure and instill an approach that will get us there in time by season's end.

If he chops and changes beyond what he is forced to, and foregoes creating a strategy and tactical plan beyond reacting to our opponents each week, we might be in trouble.

Results may not be favourable for a time, but getting the team on the same page with a game plan that gives us every chance is more important than setting up in fear if a loss.

[LakotaDakota]

2 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

Depends what his performances were like I imagine.

If they were as poor as Wes', yes he'd be getting slated. If he had no goals but was playing as well as zero-goals David McGoldrick for example, he'd be getting plenty of praise.

Yup look at someone like Almiron at Newcastle. Until the past few weeks he would probably hit the post if you put the ball on the goal line & gave him a 5 yard run up but he's treated like a cult hero because he does the work of 2 every week. You think McGinn gets around the pitch a lot but that guy does not stop running & tracking back. Chased Traore all over the pitch the other day, at one point catching him after a 30 yard dash, put in a slide tackle & got kicked in the head for his trouble, Just got up and carried on trying to play the ball forward & create chances but as soon as they lost the ball he was doing everything possible to get it back. Sure he wasn't scoring but he will be their player of the season by a long way

[terrytini]

On 14/01/2020 at 00:20, Made In Aston said:

I was thinking the same. He is very similar to martinez. Is praised for more entertaining football, taking influence from the likes of klopp and guardiola. But, ultimately, it is not successful football over the course of a season, because the players are not technically good enough to execute it properly. Smith's style is the equivalent of taking a Ford focus, disguised as an f1 car, to the Monaco gp. 

Well, it’s all about opinions, so fair enough. But for me, the opposite is true. They aren’t good enough at the defensive side to go that way.
 
We have neither the best footballers, nor the best “ grafters” in the League, because we are a side promoted via the play offs having been mismanaged as a Club for a long time.

There is no earthly reason why our players should be as good a quality throughout the squad as those in more established sides.

But, given a choice between the more open game and the “keep it tight” game, our players have repeatedly shown they are better at the former. In fact, they are usually quite poor at the latter. Additionally our buying has tended towards that type.

So both Deanos philosophy, and the players stronger suit, lend themselves to playing the more open game, most the time. I’ve no idea what goes on in their heads at the Club but if I had to guess I’d say they have an idea how they want to play, and are ready to accept sometimes it will come unstuck. But that they will Win enough games and score enough goals to see us through this season,

Of course, this has been hampered by a misfiring striker and the absence of McGinn, but I think it’s as decent a plan - if indeed it is the plan - as any. 

It is also, in my view, far far better than a retreat to a more ‘ agricultural’ style and the players and Managers that come with it.

That doesn’t excuse performances where the players collectively show a lack of focus and commitment such as has happened too often recently, and it doesn’t excuse the Coach appearing to struggle to alter that problem, but in my view those wanting a different identity, bemoaning the transfer strategy, and ‘ expecting’ us to go through the season without a few hidings are going to remain disappointed as I suspect the approach won’t change ( although hopefully it will be implemented better than recently).

[Vive_La_Villa]

21 minutes ago, terrytini said:

Well, it’s all about opinions, so fair enough. But for me, the opposite is true. They aren’t good enough at the defensive side to go that way.
 
We have neither the best footballers, nor the best “ grafters” in the League, because we are a side promoted via the play offs having been mismanaged as a Club for a long time.

There is no earthly reason why our players should be as good a quality throughout the squad as those in more established sides.

But, given a choice between the more open game and the “keep it tight” game, our players have repeatedly shown they are better at the former. In fact, they are usually quite poor at the latter. Additionally our buying has tended towards that type.

So both Deanos philosophy, and the players stronger suit, lend themselves to playing the more open game, most the time. I’ve no idea what goes on in their heads at the Club but if I had to guess I’d say they have an idea how they want to play, and are ready to accept sometimes it will come unstuck. But that they will Win enough games and score enough goals to see us through this season,

Of course, this has been hampered by a misfiring striker and the absence of McGinn, but I think it’s as decent a plan - if indeed it is the plan - as any. 

It is also, in my view, far far better than a retreat to a more ‘ agricultural’ style and the players and Managers that come with it.

That doesn’t excuse performances where the players collectively show a lack of focus and commitment such as has happened too often recently, and it doesn’t excuse the Coach appearing to struggle to alter that problem, but in my view those wanting a different identity, bemoaning the transfer strategy, and ‘ expecting’ us to go through the season without a few hidings are going to remain disappointed as I suspect the approach won’t change ( although hopefully it will be implemented better than recently).

Good post but I disagree with the bold bit mate. The last 3 games have shown the approach has changed and I think it needed to. We were just far to open in games and needed a more defensive approach. I liked how we set up and played against Burnley and I want to see that again. It was very disciplined. 
 

[terrytini]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Good post but I disagree with the bold bit mate. The last 3 games have shown the approach has changed and I think it needed to. We were just far to open in games and needed a more defensive approach. I liked how we set up and played against Burnley and I want to see that again. It was very disciplined. 
 

Agree it needed to and has changed. I should’ve said the fundamental approach won’t change. We aren’t going to suddenly try and play like Cardiff ( who proved that it’s not just footballing promoted sides who struggle) or become a side based on its defensive abilities. 
 

[MikeMcKenna]

It is fascinating and somewhat depressing to look back at this thread around this time last year. Obviously different league now and even bigger issues but I hope (against hope?) that DS can start to turn it round AGAIN. 

 

 

[terrytini]

10 minutes ago, MikeMcKenna said:

It is fascinating and somewhat depressing to look back at this thread around this time last year. Obviously different league now and even bigger issues but I hope (against hope?) that DS can start to turn it round AGAIN. 

 

 

One can never be sure of anything but I’m backing him to keep us up. It will go to the wire, it was always going to.

[KentVillan]

I may be just finding patterns in randomness here, but it's interesting that Dean Smith's Brentford teams tended to end seasons very strongly.

Here's pattern for last 10 games

• Brentford 2015-16 - W7 D1 L2 - points per game: 2.2
• Brentford 2016-17 - W5 D2 L3 - points per game: 1.7
• Brentford 2017-18 - W4 D4 L2 - points per game: 1.6
• Villa 2018-19 - W8 D1 L1- points per game: 2.5

To put into context, 2.2 and 2.5 are automatic promotion form, and 1.6 and 1.7 are more or less good enough for play offs. So his teams were kicking on in a big way versus how they'd performed earlier in the season.

I hope there's a genuine explanation for this in the way he rotates his players, manages training workloads, or something. If so, then there is some cause for optimism.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

I agree with everything you say here but none of that was Smiths fault was it. He came in 16 months ago. If memory serves me correct we signed two players on loan in his fist transfer window in Hause and Mings. Both have now signed permanently.

It wasn't Smith fault that the squad he inherited had so many players with either their best years well behind them, Whelan. Jedinak, Adomah, Elphick, Richards, Hutton, McCormack, Bunn (all of whom were out of contract in the summer) or players that were struggling at Championship level never mind being able to progress and play in the Premier League, Hogan, Bree, Tshibola, Bjarnasson etc. You could even argue the likes of Lansbury, Kodjia, Taylor, Chester and Elmo even though we kept them are all now on the wane and probably not good enough for this level and certainly given their age aren't going to improve.

The club have tried to buy players over the summer that have shown potential and have their best years in front of them and I think they should be applauded for that. There was probably a balance to be struck though and 2 or 3 players with proven pedigree at this level should have come in also. Whether due to the amount of players we needed to bring in meant buying players proven at this level wasn't possible I don't know. The club do seem to be trying to remedy that lack of experience in this window though.

Regardless of whether we go down or stay up I think a number of the players we have purchased over the summer will improve and be better players over the next year or 2 and will either be integral in getting us back up or be capable of holding their own in the top flight either with us or elsewhere. I certainly see that being the case with Konsa, Hause, Targett, Guilbert, Luiz and El Ghazi. 

In the summer it seems that we brought in players that could hopefully hold their own this season and keep us up and would also improve over time and that could be part of our squad over a number of years. Trying to build something and not have a squad of short term fixes. The keeping us up this season part is proving as hard as many of us feared though.

Mark, I am not suggesting its anyones fault, I am merely saying we are too easy to beat....everyone will have their own opinions on that.

That imo needs to change to "hard to beat"

it doesn't have to be a choice between all out attack and open football or park the bus cautious football.....it needs a hybrid of both....Many teams in the prem can mix it, thats why they have sustained their status....carry on the way we are and we will face the consequences.

However its done by The manager, the coaches, the players, the club or all.

it needs to change moving forward to a harder to beat style.

Edited January 16, 2020 by TRO

[KentVillan]

24 minutes ago, TRO said:

Mark, I am not suggesting its anyones fault, I am merely saying we are too easy to beat....everyone will have their own opinions on that.

That imo needs to change to "hard to beat"

it doesn't have to be a choice between all out attack and open football or park the bus cautious football.....it needs a hybrid of both....Many teams in the prem can mix it, thats why they have sustained their status....carry on the way we are and we will face the consequences.

However its done by The manager, the coaches, the players, the club or all.

it needs to change moving forward to a harder to beat style.

I agree - Man City showed on Sunday that you can play good, attacking football, alongside being very aggressive.

But I sympathise with Smith, since he's dealing with a young, inexperienced squad, who probably still need to grow a few hairs on their chests. Players like Luiz and Konsa will be much tougher footballers in a couple of years, I'm sure.

[TRO]

14 hours ago, KentVillan said:

I agree - Man City showed on Sunday that you can play good, attacking football, alongside being very aggressive.

But I sympathise with Smith, since he's dealing with a young, inexperienced squad, who probably still need to grow a few hairs on their chests. Players like Luiz and Konsa will be much tougher footballers in a couple of years, I'm sure.

Hallelujah......thats been my point until i am blue in the face.

playing attacking football, does not necessarily render a team to be defensively weak, its just we are.

we have to get players who can do both, not just single dimensional.

your first paragraph is spot on.

however, on recruitment, it seems like we are all or nothing....all young or all old......its a mix we want.....we have just gone/going from one extreme to the other.

Edited January 16, 2020 by TRO

[jim]

9 hours ago, MikeMcKenna said:

It is fascinating and somewhat depressing to look back at this thread around this time last year. Obviously different league now and even bigger issues but I hope (against hope?) that DS can start to turn it round AGAIN. 

 

 

Sadly last season he had one of the best teams in the league massively underperforming. This season he doesn’t have that luxury.