General Election 2017

[MakemineVanilla]

10 minutes ago, villaglint said:

Well it is being reported on by all the Tory press and nobody else because it isn't a policy in the manifesto what is talked about is a commitment to making the system fairer and the Tory press have leapt on a consultation paper written a few years back and said this will be the policy.

Its the usual smear stuff which will arrive by the van load in the next few days. 

The Labour manifesto, page 86.

Quote

A Labour government will give local government extra funding next year. We will initiate a review into reforming council tax and business rates and consider new options such as a land value tax, to ensure local government has sustainable funding for the long term.

 

[peterms]

4 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

The Labour manifesto, page 86.

 

Do you actually think that a land value tax is a tax on gardens?  Do you really?

[PaulC]

5 minutes ago, meregreen said:

You misunderstand Socialism, it is about helping others other than yourself who are less well off, to have a decent life. It isn't about stopping people improving their own lives. Social justice can go hand in hand with economic prosperity. I have enormous respect for people like your brother who have done well for themselves, and yet have the moral compass and compassion to lend a hand to others. 

Really if that was true then ok but that is so far from the truth . I could go into details but this is not the place. I know  conservatives who done a 1000 times more to help the less well off in society. 

[Straggler]

I just completed the survey on https://voteforpolicies.org.uk

Quote

Vote for policies, not personalities

Can't decide who to vote for? Find out whose policies you prefer for the 2017 general election. It’s quick, fun, and sometimes surprising!

My results were not too surprising as shown on the pic.  I knew the Greens have a bunch of policies that I agree with, what I did find a little strange is that I didn't pick a single proposal from the Conservatives.  What is really eye opening is that after 146,000 people taking the survey, Labour are in first place, Greens are second, Libs are third, UKIP are fourth and the Cons are down in fifth place with 15.5%.

 

 

[blandy]

3 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

the criticism Labour and Corbyn seem to be getting (not just from VT, but from the public) is "where is the money coming from?". i.e. they're being criticised for not having a plan, when they clearly do have a plan.

If the plan isn't perfect then fair enough, but at least they HAVE a plan.

It just seems baffling to me that labour are getting hammered on this issue when they are the ones who have the costs laid out. Tories are getting off easily despite the fact they have no costings for their policies.

Both Manifestos are not credible. It's true, perhaps that the Labour party are getting more stick for it and the tories are getting of easier, when Labour at least made a bit of an effort, but neither manifesto is properly costed or credible. A plan that involves fantasy is not a plan. Furthermore all the assumptions about growth and taxes etc. are basically unknowable. The economy will tank in the next year and none of the sums done will add up.

[sharkyvilla]

1 hour ago, jackbauer24 said:

I know this statement will rile some people up but in my experience, Tory voters tell me they're voting Tory because they will lose this money or that money from Corbyn policies. Labour voters tell me they're voting Labour because they want more funding in education or policing or the NHS. Basically people voting Tory tell me how a Labour government would effect THEM, those voting Labour tell me how a Labour government would help SOCIETY.

When me and my partner discuss politics, we talk of what is right and what is fair, we never talk about our own personal bank accounts. We may or may not be marginally worse off if a Labour governnent came to power, I highly doubt we'd be better off, but I'd still be happy living in a country that is attempting to look after everyone rather than the privileged few. Your life experiences will dictate your ideology but I have to question anyone who can look themselves in a mirror and be happy knowing that their bank account is more important than the lives of millions of other people on the breadline, being unfairly assessed for disability benefits, waiting in underfunded hospitals for ever cancelled operations whilst their kids go to a school that has run out of money for supplies and is letting support staff go, to return home (from the food bank) to find it has been burgled but there are no police available to investigate... ok, highly melodramatic but you get my point.

I'm yet to meet a Tory supporter (including in my own family) who isn't basically selfish. Doesn't mean they/you are horrible people, it just means that is one of their traits. My uncle is Tory, lovely guy but fundamentally he is way more interested in his bank account than whether his niece's and nephew's kids have a good education as he doesn't see the wider picture, just what effects him.

The only thing I'd say is that the older vote seems to be going to the Tories by 20% more than 2015 despite having their fuel allowance cut, the triple lock removed and potentially losing more of their assets to pass on to the kids.  It seems they are willing to take a hit rather than have younger people pay out for care from their taxes, which is unselfish.  Perhaps they can see the risk in promises of a huge spending splurge, rather than necessarily wanting to deprive people of health or education.

[Stevo985]

5 minutes ago, blandy said:

Both Manifestos are not credible. It's true, perhaps that the Labour party are getting more stick for it and the tories are getting of easier, when Labour at least made a bit of an effort, but neither manifesto is properly costed or credible. A plan that involves fantasy is not a plan. Furthermore all the assumptions about growth and taxes etc. are basically unknowable. The economy will tank in the next year and none of the sums done will add up.

I don't disagree (I'm not sure I totally agree either, but it's beside the point)

I guess the point I'm making is it very much seems from where I'm standing that Labour are effectively being accused of making it all up. The "magical money tree" bollocks implies that they haven't done any sums at all.

I guess I'm just surprised that they are the ones bearing the brunt of that accusation when they're the ones who have put more effort into it.

[Chindie]

@blandy

Stop talking GREAT Britain down, this time next year the pavements will be covered in gold, the EU still come to its senses and remember it's place and everyone will have roasts every day and Rolexs for all!

...

More seriously, I think I'd rather vote for the party that will at least try rather than the one with a record of shit and a manifesto of disgust. Neither will succeed but at least one has a glimmer of hope.

[bobzy]

2 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

As with the corporation tax going up, this is going to effect unemployment along with the increase in minimum wage. You cant do both as what I think is going to happen this is going to take hits on their profits and they are going to say sod this we have to get rid of staff as both our eating into our profits. If you go after the rich and businesses constantly it has a knock on effect on the poor/middle class i think. Its not right but thats the way I see the world.

Its a shit life really! 

Corbyn has already said that they are likely to give tax reliefs for small businesses to offset the rise in minimum wage and ensure staff retention.  It's the bigger business that will be paying the vast majority of the assumed £20bn~ tax windfall.

Once again, completely the correct strategy.

[ml1dch]

14 minutes ago, Straggler said:

I just completed the survey on https://voteforpolicies.org.uk

My results were not too surprising as shown on the pic.  I knew the Greens have a bunch of policies that I agree with, what I did find a little strange is that I didn't pick a single proposal from the Conservatives.  What is really eye opening is that after 146,000 people taking the survey, Labour are in first place, Greens are second, Libs are third, UKIP are fourth and the Cons are down in fifth place with 15.5%.

 

 

It would be fascinating if being used in a study of "supporters of which political party are more likely to fill out online quizzes about politics".

Beyond that, it doesn't really tell us much.

Edited June 5, 2017 by ml1dch

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, Chindie said:

 

 

More seriously, I think I'd rather vote for the party that will at least try rather than the one with a record of shit and a manifesto of disgust. Neither will succeed but at least one has a glimmer of hope.

Yeah this is my response at the moment for people who say Labour's policies are unrealistic. Including my mother!

Fine, they might be right. But I'd rather the government were striving for the right things. Maybe they'll only have enough money for 50% of it. At least it's 50% good stuff rather than the same old shit we've got now.

[bobzy]

4 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

The only thing I'd say is that the older vote seems to be going to the Tories by 20% more than 2015 despite having their fuel allowance cut, the triple lock removed and potentially losing more of their assets to pass on to the kids.  It seems they are willing to take a hit rather than have younger people pay out for care from their taxes, which is unselfish.  Perhaps they can see the risk in promises of a huge spending splurge, rather than necessarily wanting to deprive people of health or education.

If those Tory voters are anything like my Dad, their views (as decent human beings) will basically align with Labour (apart from, weirdly, on education where he thinks children should just "try their hardest" and supports grammar schools.  Mental.) but he will "never vote red" due to workers unions disrupting industry about 30 years ago.  I even challenged him to name one Conservative policy he agrees with or one incident that has seen Theresa May be "strong and stable".  No answer.  Voting Conservative, though.

The same seems to be apparent across most 60+ year old males.  Those blokes in the audience on QT basically started their questions with "I'm a Tory and I hope we win, but I'm concerned that...".  Absolutely, totally entrenched views with 0 interest in reviewing policies and deciding what is best for them.

If you get a few more older people moving to the right (working class people, traditionally voting Labour but fed up with immigration/terrorists/etc so changing to the right), you'll get an increase in older voters for the Conservatives.

[Stevo985]

3 minutes ago, bobzy said:

If those Tory voters are anything like my Dad, their views (as decent human beings) will basically align with Labour (apart from, weirdly, on education where he thinks children should just "try their hardest" and supports grammar schools.  Mental.) but he will "never vote red" due to workers unions disrupting industry about 30 years ago.  I even challenged him to name one Conservative policy he agrees with or one incident that has seen Theresa May be "strong and stable".  No answer.  Voting Conservative, though.

The same seems to be apparent across most 60+ year old males.  Those blokes in the audience on QT basically started their questions with "I'm a Tory and I hope we win, but I'm concerned that...".  Absolutely, totally entrenched views with 0 interest in reviewing policies and deciding what is best for them.

If you get a few more older people moving to the right (working class people, traditionally voting Labour but fed up with immigration/terrorists/etc so changing to the right), you'll get an increase in older voters for the Conservatives.

Said it before in here, but it's this almost Football Supporter style tribalism that really annoys me about politics.

I'm the absolute definition of a floating voter. This will be the third General election in a row where I'll have voted for a different party than last time (different parties every time, in four elections I've not voted for the same party twice!).

I just can't imagine being so loyal to a party that I would vote for them no matter what. I try to vote for the people and policies I think are best at the time. I'm probably wrong, but at least that's my intention

[HanoiVillan]

2 hours ago, hippo said:

Im just saying Lynton Crosby virtually manipulates the electorate. My conspiracy theory is he knows he is going to win. But lets let labour think they are doing well so they keep doing the same things.

I wish I could find the article.

Please don't get me wrong, Lynton Crosby is extremely good at what he does. There's a reason he's now on his 3rd time round as chief Tory strategist. His record in Australia is very impressive as well. But Labour also have impressive strategists - they hired Jim Messina, one of the Obama 2008 masterminds, for the 2015 election - and I think there's a real risk of placing too much importance on campaign architecture in retrospect. It's easier to look a genius if you won, whether it's true or not. 

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

Said it before in here, but it's this almost Football Supporter style tribalism that really annoys me about politics.

I'm the absolute definition of a floating voter. This will be the third General election in a row where I'll have voted for a different party than last time (different parties every time, in four elections I've not voted for the same party twice!).

I just can't imagine being so loyal to a party that I would vote for them no matter what. I try to vote for the people and policies I think are best at the time. I'm probably wrong, but at least that's my intention

Exactly the same - and it's definitely more prevalent in younger voters.  I'd say "younger" is probably 40 years and below.  The 40-60 age group is likely a bit of a mix between complete "I'm a Labour voter from Barnsleh and always will beh" and people who are likely to be well-read and decide based on policies.

I previously lived in a safe Labour seat (although who knows anymore) and have voted on past elections based purely on what parties have been pushing.  It's resulted in Lib Dem and Green.  This time round, though, I'm voting Labour.  I live in a Conservative safe seat now so I doubt it will matter, but I actively don't want them to increase their majority.

May is the worst-in-public Prime Minister I have ever known.  She comes across as clueless, as having no empathy, no backbone and entirely indecisive on almost every subject (apparently, apart from when it comes to launching nukes).  Her manifesto is empty.  The only reason she has called a general election is to increase her majority.  There is absolutely no passion in anything she is campaigning for.  It's a disaster and she needs getting rid of.

FWIW, I actually thought David Cameron was a decent leader and spoke well.  Might not have necessarily aligned with his views, but I felt relatively comfortable having him as PM.  May is absolutely woeful.

[Xann]

Quote

The Conservatives have ruled out raising income taxes on the highest earners – despite having refused to make the same pledge for taxpayers on lower incomes.

Theresa May has repeatedly refused to rule out raising tax on ordinary workers during the election campaign, with income tax and national insurance hikes potentially on the table.

However senior Conservative Cabinet minister Michael Fallon has now told the Daily Telegraph newspaper that the richest would be exempt from any hikes under Tory plans.

Asked if high earners could vote Conservative without risking an increase in their income tax, Sir Michael told the newspaper: “Yes. You’ve seen our record. We’re not in the business of punishing people for getting on, on the contrary we want people to keep more of their earnings.

Independent

[sharkyvilla]

14 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Yeah this is my response at the moment for people who say Labour's policies are unrealistic. Including my mother!

Fine, they might be right. But I'd rather the government were striving for the right things. Maybe they'll only have enough money for 50% of it. At least it's 50% good stuff rather than the same old shit we've got now.

That's fair enough except what if he spends 80-100% of it but only turns out to have been able to afford 50% of it.  It's really hard to predict how much tax income will be at the best of times, let alone when Brexit is thrown into it.  Nobody knows how Brexit will pan out but he's committing £11bn for scrapping tuition fees alone for example.  You only have to start paying them back when you earn above the average wage and hence better off than most, so for me that would be a very low priority right now.   I'm a bit worried about increasing corporation tax, the minimum wage, increasing tax on many of the business owners and scrapping zero hours all at the same time as we leave the EU and don't have a clue how trade will be effected.  Logically I can only see fewer people being employed.  I'm probably in a minority on here though.

[hippo]

2 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Exactly the same - and it's definitely more prevalent in younger voters.  I'd say "younger" is probably 40 years and below.  The 40-60 age group is likely a bit of a mix between complete "I'm a Labour voter from Barnsleh and always will beh" and people who are likely to be well-read and decide based on policies.

I previously lived in a safe Labour seat (although who knows anymore) and have voted on past elections based purely on what parties have been pushing.  It's resulted in Lib Dem and Green.  This time round, though, I'm voting Labour.  I live in a Conservative safe seat now so I doubt it will matter, but I actively don't want them to increase their majority.

May is the worst-in-public Prime Minister I have ever known.  She comes across as clueless, as having no empathy, no backbone and entirely indecisive on almost every subject (apparently, apart from when it comes to launching nukes).  Her manifesto is empty.  The only reason she has called a general election is to increase her majority.  There is absolutely no passion in anything she is campaigning for.  It's a disaster and she needs getting rid of.

FWIW, I actually thought David Cameron was a decent leader and spoke well.  Might not have necessarily aligned with his views, but I felt relatively comfortable having him as PM.  May is absolutely woeful.

Cameron was a decent politician - although his mistakes where whoppers (the Scottish and EU referendums  IMO) - But day to day he was fairly competent. May is just a million miles out her depth. Be surprised if she lasts much over 18 months.

[VillaChris]

8 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Please don't get me wrong, Lynton Crosby is extremely good at what he does. There's a reason he's now on his 3rd time round as chief Tory strategist. His record in Australia is very impressive as well. But Labour also have impressive strategists - they hired Jim Messina, one of the Obama 2008 masterminds, for the 2015 election - and I think there's a real risk of placing too much importance on campaign architecture in retrospect. It's easier to look a genius if you won, whether it's true or not. 

Dosen't always get it right, wasn't he in charge of the remain message last year?

[hippo]

1 minute ago, sharkyvilla said:

That's fair enough except what if he spends 80-100% of it but only turns out to have been able to afford 50% of it.  It's really hard to predict how much tax income will be at the best of times, let alone when Brexit is thrown into it.  Nobody knows how Brexit will pan out but he's committing £11bn for scrapping tuition fees alone for example.  You only have to start paying them back when you earn above the average wage and hence better off than most, so for me that would be a very low priority right now.   I'm a bit worried about increasing corporation tax, the minimum wage, increasing tax on many of the business owners and scrapping zero hours all at the same time as we leave the EU and don't have a clue how trade will be effected.  Logically I can only see fewer people being employed.  I'm probably in a minority on here though.

The big one to worry about there is leaving the EU. The others are tiddlers in comparison.

Turning your back on one of the biggest trading blocks is never going to be a good move.