Steve Bruce

[Tommo_b]

26 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

Completely entitled to your opinion & POV mate but why do you think he will turn this round (anytime soon) when we keep being let down week after week and having to endure this suffering? It really has been long enough and any reasoning or excuses just hold less and less value now.

I don't intend any offence or anger toward anyone but we are going through a massively frustrating time and it's difficult not to appear enraged and fed up. Even if we managed to pick up a result from somewhere I do not trust this guy going forward, we need to change it.

Not saying I want to keep Bruce, I'm not fussed either way, but in respect to TRO I could see the logic in keeping Bruce if you compared Wagner last season at Huddersfield and this season, same manager but the season Huddersfield are having this season compared to last is chalk and cheese, I'm sure Huddersfield fans wanted Wagner to go last season, but look at where he has got them now a year into the job, whose to say Bruce in a years time will not have us challenging? 

Obviously at the moment it seems a million miles away to be anywhere near that level, but with this squad, and Bruce's experience of this league then it could be us next season going up.

But just to clarify, I mind either way if he stays or goes.

[Eastie]

2 minutes ago, Tommo_b said:

Not saying I want to keep Bruce, I'm not fussed either way, but in respect to TRO I could see the logic in keeping Bruce if you compared Wagner last season at Huddersfield and this season, same manager but the season Huddersfield are having this season compared to last is chalk and cheese, I'm sure Huddersfield fans wanted Wagner to go last season, but look at where he has got them now a year into the job, whose to say Bruce in a years time will not have us challenging? 

Obviously at the moment it seems a million miles away to be anywhere near that level, but with this squad, and Bruce's experience of this league then it could be us next season going up.

But just to clarify, I mind either way if he stays or goes.

That's a really good point about Wagner and the difference in the team after giving him time - many tipped them to go down this season after their struggle last year .

[TRO]

14 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

Completely entitled to your opinion & POV mate but why do you think he will turn this round (anytime soon) when we keep being let down week after week and having to endure this suffering? It really has been long enough and any reasoning or excuses just hold less and less value now.

I don't intend any offence or anger toward anyone but we are going through a massively frustrating time and it's difficult not to appear enraged and fed up. Even if we managed to pick up a result from somewhere I do not trust this guy going forward, we need to change it.

I agree.....Jas you want to see me watching a game.....I bawl at the TV, I jump up and point things out at the screen, I say to my Mrs ....."look at the gaps , look at the lack of closing down, they are not picking players up, no wonder the opposition is playing well, we let them"......I could go on and on.....against Newcastle i was screaming "they are winning every headed ball.....its gaining/giving them ground, we will be under pressure soon"

I had to stop going to VP, for fear of my own safety.....I was picking up on every fault.......quite frankly I was becoming a distraction to my fellow fans.....I had to stop it so I don't go so much now.....I just scream at the Tele.

I am going Saturday, so If you see a man gagged its me.

I know its the managers responsibility to turn this around.....not arguing with that in the slightest.....But some of the stuff i see, is player, not manager.

I am not claiming to know all the answers, but equally, I don't think anyone else does either.

I see no argument on here as eloquent and feasible as some are, to tell me what the problem is......."We have changed everything on the vehicle, but the rattle persists"

There is no doubt a fix will be found....but we are all still searching.

Despite all the changes in personnel and I was happy with most of them, but like many fans .....did not study their previous play just caught snips.

I still think the balance is wrong.....I still think individuals need to win their own duels more and that most definately includes aerial ball.....The Goalkeeper needs to do his job.....The center backs need to be more dominate especially at set pieces.......The 2 attacking midfielders need to keep the ball more and drive in to the opposition and we need a winger who can beat a man and send in quality crosses......We need strikers who attack the space and not just the ball.....we need our players overall to close down the opposition and be more business like without the ball.....They need to get much closer to their opponent and deny them space.  The TEAM needs to fight more when we are down and not just capitulate, like a set of domino's......We need to be developing little partnerships that morph in to a team that is galvanised, organised and shows cohesion.

Big Job Hey!

because at the moment we are miles away.

[Jas10]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

Where my view point differs is this.

• You seem to blame Bruce directly for what we are witnessing on the pitch
• I only Blame him indirectly

I believe he is trying to turn this around and is not happy like us with what he is seeing.....Hence " give him time" 

There is a difference between  knowing what your doing and getting the reaction you want......That does not seem to be digested to me.

I don't believe that he doesn't know what he is doing, but he is not getting the reaction that he wants, so he is using "trial and error" .......isn't that a common method in life when theory lets you down.

These players are Human beings first and football players second.....They are not doing what he is asking, for whatever reason, lack of confidence, etc

If thats what he gets removed for, then so be it.....but thats it for me.....to say he is clueless I disagree.....FWIW I don't think the previous managers was  clueless either, I think its a throw away comment, because we are/were losing.

Ps whatever we was doing under them or what we are doing now.....is not working, I will agree on that.

 

 

I'm sure most, if not all, of us don't think Bruce is intentionally doing so poorly or losing us games. Of course he's trying but he is continually failing. There is so much evidence that he doesn't know quite how to rectify the situation we are in and doesn't have a set idea or plan in place that has any likelihood of working or having a positive impact. He seems at a loss despite his efforts and is just leading us into a downward spiral that I want to see an end to.

Ok he's not clueless but is certainly giving off that appearance here. By now, he should not be undergoing any trial and error, he should have decided on a set system and style of play but instead he is messing about and not allowing us any rhythm, cohesion or consistency - because he does not know how to achieve it. In that sense, arguably, maybe he is being a bit clueless. Maybe the players aren't doing "what he is saying" because he chops and changes so often, maybe they are just as lost as him at the moment and need someone else to give them the proper direction and some motivation (I'm shocked he's failed at that really, I thought he could at least do that). I don't think they are not trying, they are not blameless but Bruce is clearly not helping...

I keep saying this but, again, it just hasn't worked out. He has proven not to be the right fit for our club. Maybe it's a case of right man at the wrong time (I don't think so personally, he does seem too old fashioned and not what we need) but when things don't go even half as well as planned then it is time to part ways.

It's only natural for fans of any decent club to become angered and frustrated (it's not always directed to the manager either, often to players and board at times but Bruce is not blameless and the most likely at fault) when we don't see any progress, a lack of ideas and activity (I don't think wanting a pro active manager is an unreasonable demand, Bruce is certainly not looking like that, particularly on match day) and just such poor performances and no sign of a decent result. Maybe the job is too  if for him and has weighed a heavy toll upon him. Fair enough but stop sticking around to make it even worse for us then!

It would've been great if it had worked or, if he had at least got us winning games and working as a proper team, but that hasn't happened and it's time to part ways and say thanks but no thanks. 

[Jas10]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

I agree.....Jas you want to see me watching a game.....I bawl at the TV, I jump up and point things out at the screen, I say to my Mrs ....."look at the gaps , look at the lack of closing down, they are not picking players up, no wonder the opposition is playing well, we let them"......I could go on and on.....against Newcastle i was screaming "they are winning every headed ball.....its gaining/giving them ground, we will be under pressure soon"

I had to stop going to VP, for fear of my own safety.....I was picking up on every fault.......quite frankly I was becoming a distraction to my fellow fans.....I had to stop it so I don't go so much now.....I just scream at the Tele.

I am going Saturday, so If you see a man gagged its me.

I know its the managers responsibility to turn this around.....not arguing with that in the slightest.....But some of the stuff i see, is player, not manager.

I am not claiming to know all the answers, but equally, I don't think anyone else does either.

I see no argument on here as eloquent and feasible as some are, to tell me what the problem is......."We have changed everything on the vehicle, but the rattle persists"

There is no doubt a fix will be found....but we are all still searching.

Despite all the changes in personnel and I was happy with most of them, but like many fans .....did not study their previous play just caught snips.

I still think the balance is wrong.....I still think individuals need to win their own duels more and that most definately includes aerial ball.....The Goalkeeper needs to do his job.....The center backs need to be more dominate especially at set pieces.......The 2 attacking midfielders need to keep the ball more and drive in to the opposition and we need a winger who can beat a man and send in quality crosses......We need strikers who attack the space and not just the ball.....we need our players overall to close down the opposition and be more business like without the ball.....They need to get much closer to their opponent and deny them space.  The TEAM needs to fight more when we are down and not just capitulate, like a set of domino's......We need to be developing little partnerships that morph in to a team that is galvanised, organised and shows cohesion.

Big Job Hey!

because at the moment we are miles away.

Well I hope for all our sakes that things pick up asap, doesn't feel like we've won a game for an age and doesn't look likely unless we part ways with Bruce.

Good luck to you mate.

[Jas10]

28 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

We need to bottom out before we can move forward again, I think most people thought relegation to the Championship would constitute rock bottom for us but I fear it is not.

 

Man City, Southampton, Leicester, Norwich etc all had to get relegated to the 3rd division in order to rebuild, whilst the thought of Villa playing in the 3rd division depresses me greatly I can't help but feel that it's what we need.

[Jas10]

I maintain, if we get the right management & coaching team into our club we will be ok and start moving forwards. It's up to those running the club to research and make these decisions and it's their responsibility to get it right. They need to get off their arses now!

[ViewFromT2]

43 minutes ago, ViewFromT2 said:

Not strictly true...'attacking the ball' is what they should be doing, and we don't....in either box. Nothing wrong with letting a ball bounce if you're first to it and attacking it. Problem is when you're caught on your heels and you just lash a leg at it...Kodija, Elphick, Hutton, Baker, Chester...all guilty of that recently.

Defensively we are very poor technically. Look at starting positions, body shape etc when the ball is wide, we are just terrible. Love to know the percentage of goals we concede from wide areas (inc. corners)?...I wouldn't mind betting its up around the 70% mark. Every time the ball is wide we look vulnerable. 

Our full backs never stop the cross...ever. That's the first rule of defending as a full back. Stop the cross.

Then when it does come in our marking is ridiculous. Centre Backs have no idea where strikers are because their body shape is 'closed' not 'open'. First thing we were ever taught....man and ball,....as a defender you must be able to see man and ball. Turn your bodies FFS!

For professional footballers, Chester, Baker and Elphick are extremely poor at this basic defensive principle!

To highlight this, look at the two goals Barnsley scored from open play....apologies for the pics, I'm no Gary Neville...but this is so basic.....I really and truly expected Steve Bruce to sort this inept defending out as soon as he came in....

Look at Amavi's position for the cross. No pressue on the ball at all. Cannot stop the cross from 6/7 yards away. It's not even like he was trying to get there, he just runs alongside at that distance if you watch it back.

 

 

 

Cross comes in, Baker doesn't know where the 10 has gone. Chester also 'closed' position, but can at least see the Barnsley 10...although too far away to defend him. Any communication you think?

Note Hourihane's position relative to Baker and Chester

 

 

 

Contact made on the cross. Baker and Chester haven't moved...Hourihane only player even attempting a tackle/block...he made up around 5/6 yards whilst the other two never moved.

Look at Huttons body position in the corner there....is he aware of that Barnsley player behind him do you think?

 

 

 

 

Shot on goal....at this point it is possible that Johnstone could of saved the shot (yeah right!!)...had he parried it away across goal....do you think Hutton even now knows there's a player behind him? It's staggeringly bad....no awareness whatsoever.

 

 

 

One pic in build up to second goal:

We have SIX players all looking at the ball...SEVEN if you include the keeper. Look at the far post, Baker no idea where the man is....if the ball had been lifted across to the far post, it's a tap in! 

Bar Amavi and Lansbury who are trying to close down, all of those other defenders, plus the keeper should be turned through 90 degrees...so their back is toward goal. This is entry level basic defending surely, or have I discovered a new rocket science?

 

Sorry for the length of post and use of images, but if I can see this (and it's not a new thing)...WHAT THE HELL ARE THE COACHING STAFF DOING MONDAY TO FRIDAY?

 

Edited February 22, 2017 by ViewFromT2

[Villarocker]

25 minutes ago, TRO said:

 

I see no argument on here as eloquent and feasible as some are, to tell me what the problem is......."We have changed everything on the vehicle, but the rattle persists"

 

I am not saying this is the answer mate but, I think that Bruce can bring what you say we are needing - stability. You - and many others - have said that we need stability but Bruce could go a long way to bringing about that himself by stop changing the system and the players that he's fielding. Imagine being a right back at the Villa for instance. One week the player to your immediate left is Elphick and the player directly in front of you is Adomah. Next game you have Chester to the left and Adomah in front. Next game it is Chester to the left and Bjarnason in front - the combinations are endless all around the pitch. Midfielders look for Kodjia as a central striker one game and next game he's out on the left wing.

Bruce needs to find his formation, train to that formation and settle on his first eleven to fill those places. Just go with it, win or lose, for a few games and see if the players can gain some kind of confidence and belief in what they are doing.

[Bunnski]

Please sack him Tony. Im dead inside when it comes to Villa again. Couldnt careless if we win or lose, I used to get such a buzz when we won and would be in the depths of despair when we lost but now I feel nothing. Get a manager that will set us up intelligently with a plan to score goals by creating as many chances as possible, not this anti-football shite thats relying on scrappy goals and constantly booting the ball out of defence.

[antonvillage]

I'm sorry but I can't believe he has to say to the players... find the pass from the touch line... I thought we were watching professional football. What has happened, I never feel comfortable when we have the ball. They can't keep the ball for more than 5 minutes.

 

not enjoyable to watch

 

[The Fun Factory]

I don't know what to think anymore. We have tried foreign (Houllier, Garde), up and coming manager (Lambert), motivational 'manager' (Sherwood) and the stability manager (Mcleish, Bruce) all since MON left and every approach has failed dismally.  Whatever we do we end up messing  it up. 

[PieFacE]

13 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

I don't know what to think anymore. We have tried foreign (Houllier, Garde), up and coming manager (Lambert), motivational 'manager' (Sherwood) and the stability manager (Mcleish, Bruce) all since MON left and every approach has failed dismally.  Whatever we do we end up messing  it up. 

I'd go back to the foreign route. I wouldn't class Houllier or Garde as failures. Houllier under-acheived but was trying to get us to play a different style of football, it was never going to be easy straight away and the fans unfairly jumped on his back imo. Garde pretty much had no chance. I wish Garde had stayed to be honest. 

Edited February 22, 2017 by PieFacE

[Spoony]

What about MON? He overspent on nonsense and we did alright under him. Wonder if he would come back...

[Eastie]

3 minutes ago, Spoony said:

What about MON? He overspent on nonsense and we did alright under him. Wonder if he would come back...

No more old guard type managers - up and coming young modern thinking continental is the way to go - Wagner or someone of that ilk.

[srsmithusa]

I will try again.

I think the problem at Villa came from the top down and the solution will need to come from the top down as well.  The problem was created by Lerner's neglect.  It was difficult to see anything other than neglect and disinterest from his lack of attendance at Villa Park.  Then, after investing nicely for a while, including setting a too high wage standard, RL's divorce and maybe other personal matters caused his wallet to dry up.  Fast forward several years of minimal investment (still paying salaries that were far too high).  And the club from top to bottom, settled into a lethargy of complacency.  It was as though the board said out loud and repeatedly (by their actions), we don't have the resources to do great things, so let's just try to hit an acceptable standard.  (the most eggregious example may be refusing to back Remi in the January transfer window)

When the boss doesn't care if things are done to the highest standard, doesn't demand that of himself, or of others, it becomes a cancer in the organization.  A cancer where "trying" is an acceptable result.  Paul Lambert (who I think could be a good manager with proper backing) could "go again" week after week and it was acceptable because he was "doing as well as could be expected given the resources."  I couldn't witness it occurring from the kitchen staff, maintenance staff, support staff, but I could see it on the field.  We all could.  It progressed to the point where our young star could go out drinking and partying with his mates after an embarrassing loss.  Our bench could play gum-spitting games during a match.  Our "captain" could eat his rapidly gaining weight in sweets.  Our "captain" could touch ball three times in a match, and two of those were kick-offs, and call it a day.   There was an attitude that if I "try" that's good enough.  There is a complacency that permits merely "trying" to be acceptable.  What this team needs, and it must come from the top down, is (to misquote Yoda) "There is no 'try.'  There is either do, or do not."  As an organization, from the top down, Villa lost that.  From the top down, Villa will need to get it back.

IMO, the best and perhaps even essential way to get it back is for the chairman and the board to say in word and in action, "We are a results business.  Our fans expect it, and we do too. We thank Steve Bruce for his efforts and his commitment, but the results are not good enough.  We will be replacing him and wish him all the luck in the world."  That stance... That position and action that says, "effort is not enough".  

This is a results business and by Steve's own admission the results have not been good.  When the club (backroom, barmaid, and players) begin to sense that "good intentions and good efforts are not enough....at Villa we expect excellence by every standard, especially in the results."  That's when I think this club will turn the corner.  It must become the watch word from the top down.  The disease is so entrenched that half measures will produce more of "we tried" or "we did OK considering".  Worse yet, half measures will reinforce the cancer.

It has to start from the top.  And it has to start soon, our decline will continue until it does.  

I guess my point about Bruce is that he needs to be let go.  Now, not last week.  But it's not because I hate him.  It's not because he's inept.  It's not that my fortune-telling that he won't turn this around is accurate.  It's not that my fortune-telling can assure that the next guy will do it better or faster.  It's because our club is in free-fall that started as a slow decay of half-hearted effort and the only way to stop it is for Xia and the board to make it clear that we are a results business and poor results will not be excused.  In fact they will not be tolerated.  

 

 

 

[Eastie]

Pity you were not in charge at United when fergie took over - he'd have been sacked long before winning a thing .

[mykeyb]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Where my view point differs is this.

• You seem to blame Bruce directly for what we are witnessing on the pitch
• I only Blame him indirectly

I believe he is trying to turn this around and is not happy like us with what he is seeing.....Hence " give him time" 

There is a difference between  knowing what your doing and getting the reaction you want......That does not seem to be digested to me.

I don't believe that he doesn't know what he is doing, but he is not getting the reaction that he wants, so he is using "trial and error" .......isn't that a common method in life when theory lets you down.

These players are Human beings first and football players second.....They are not doing what he is asking, for whatever reason, lack of confidence, etc

If thats what he gets removed for, then so be it.....but thats it for me.....to say he is clueless I disagree.....FWIW I don't think the previous managers was  clueless either, I think its a throw away comment, because we are/were losing.

Ps whatever we was doing under them or what we are doing now.....is not working, I will agree on that.

 

 

I do believe that he isnt happy with what he sees, he couldnt be, I think were my opinion differs to yours is that I dont think he knows how to put it right. He will continually change the starting 11 or the formation in the hope of finding a solution and I dont think that is where the issue lies although the constant changes probably make it worse.

You are saying he isnt getting the reaction he wants from the players, they are not doing what he is asking...............four months in he still isnt able to imprint onto the team which up until Xmas was doing ok, his style, his method whatever you want to label it. That is a worry, how much leeway or rope do you afford a manager that cannot get the team to adopt what he needs them too?

If you are right it doesnt strike me that it will suddenly be a quick fix, it may take too many games to get the team to change, we dont have the luxury of plenty of games since our complete and utter collapse in 2017 and thats what worries me most. he hasnt got time, Im not sure he has another 4 games let alone another 4 months.

He may well be a very decent man, as a manager I think he is lacking some vital tools which will stop him from gaining real tangible success here.

[srsmithusa]

4 minutes ago, Eastie said:

Pity you were not in charge at United when fergie took over - he'd have been sacked long before winning a thing .

Eastie, if you are referencing me.... Did SAF take over a team that was stuck in the doldrums of complacency from years of neglect and excused mediocrity?

[villa4europe]

i hate the managers dont get a chance anymore, fergie would have been sacked talk, he had 3 decent seasons with utd before the bad one and restructured half the club behind the scenes

bruce has done nothing