TRO Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Grasshopper said: 1 - Team that makes most changes - Team sits in 3rd place - Manager making correct decisions 2 - Team that makes 2nd most changes - Team in relegation battle - manager needs more time to learn to make correct decisions GH but you might as well have said. winning = good decisions losing =bad decisions If only life was as simple as that.......Everyone and his grandmother admits the task is mammoth.....but when we talk like that it suggests we are just giving it lip service. No one is condoning or accepting the levels of individual or team performance and even more worrying, results. what is being said by the 2 camps Get rid of him now Let him work his way through this and turn it around. who knows, who is right and who is wrong. Edited February 23, 2017 by TRO 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 TRO if you think Bruce maybe merits a bit more time why not come right out and say so ? Seriously though, here's hoping Saturday adds weight to your view because it's going to be extremely unpleasant there if it doesn't.....I suspect we are at the point where a poor showing could mean the crowd turns during the game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Grasshopper said: 1 - Team that makes most changes - Team sits in 3rd place - Manager making correct decisions 2 - Team that makes 2nd most changes - Team in relegation battle - manager needs more time to learn to make correct decisions Well, more that **** around with the formation and personnel isn't necessarily a problem. But sure. Edited February 23, 2017 by bobzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 6 hours ago, Morley_crosses_to_Withe said: Good post. I don't agree with it in full but it's a nice attempt at some analysis. What it got me thinking, though, is when do the players need to take responsibility for not doing their job? I'm going to use Hutton as an example: he is 32 years old and has been in professional for seventeen years. His poor positioning in relation to the Barnsley player and lack of awareness is him failing to do the basics. If he needs coaching to tell him what to do there - at the age of 32 - then he should give up on football. It's ridiculous. Bruce is getting things wrong. There's no doubt of that. But he's not being helped out by players who are simply not doing their job. That is exactly my point. Its been the main thrust of my thoughts throughout the previous managers too, because I have seen it under them too. I have no unconditional view to give Steve Bruce a get out of jail card.....but the amount and consistency of these basic errors has me baffled. I do not accept Steve Bruce or the previous incumbents cannot see, what we see. Why, it continues, what seems like unabated......I am Baffled. Not in a million years, would i think that Steve Bruce would preside over this level of bereft basics and downright poor defensive play. It just seems like we sign new players and they do not change the play....the individual errors still persist. We seem to change our opinions on individuals from week to week such is how fickle their form is......it seems the player out of the team, or on the bench,is always better. it really is an enigma to me. I have no mission to unconditionally defend the manager, but I see something's on matchday, which I believe are the basic responsibility of a professional football player to deal with better than they are......The manager can only do so much. I accept that whether it is right or whether it is wrong, the manager will always carry the can and I also accept the we expect the manager to get them playing, in my opinion he is trying to do that. I also I accept these losses cannot go unchecked ,so some form of change ,at some point will inevitably happen if we do not arrest it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, terrytini said: TRO if you think Bruce maybe merits a bit more time why not come right out and say so ? Seriously though, here's hoping Saturday adds weight to your view because it's going to be extremely unpleasant there if it doesn't.....I suspect we are at the point where a poor showing could mean the crowd turns during the game. Terry, I think he should be given more time.....but I am hard pressed to say that that time should be unconditional....it cannot be. I am going on Saturday, but I don't go so often now, but I do get to wast he every game. I have highlighted in my latest post on here and previous post the errors I am witnessing during games...."view to T2" has highlighted in images in one of his posts the shambolic level of defending we are presiding over. Its well documented that I am in doubt of blaming the manager DIRECTLY, he has to take responsibility granted, but taking the horse to the water.....and getting him to drink, is two quite different things IMO. I am hoping for a turn in fortunes.....based on a bit of stability in personnel and his first 12 games..but as professionals, they have to do the basics, to give him a chance.....those basics are currently absent in our play. Edited February 23, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnyp Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 He has to finish the season strongly and also his January signings need to fire. Very hard for Xia to back him in the summer if who he has signed don't show us something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted February 23, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) It's not individual players that are concerning me apart from Johnstone. It's the way we're setting up as a collective, we really are looking completely clueless at the minute. If we don't win on Saturday then the bloke really has to be sacked. Edited February 23, 2017 by PieFacE 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 hour ago, bobzy said: Well, more that **** around with the formation and personnel isn't necessarily a problem. But sure. But it clearly has been a problem for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, PieFacE said: It's not individual players that are concerning me apart from Johnstone. It's the way we're setting up as a collective, we really are looking completely clueless at the minute. If we don't win on Saturday then the bloke really has to be sacked. Interesting.... Can you explain what you mean, when you say "setting up collectively" I can't see how we can play collectively until we can win our personal duels, we are forever losing the ball. I do appreciate that there is much more than one thing wrong. But,its like what come first the chicken or the egg. Edited February 23, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said: Bruce makes changes and doesn't have a clue what he's doing, the Huddlefield manager evidently knows what he is doing when he changes his side, it's as simple as that. One manager has a clue, the other doesn't. Bruce's trial and error strategy is not delivering and is frankly blowing up on him. But that is what "work in progress"relates to......something that is not right or complete but hopefully working to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 hour ago, TRO said: That is exactly my point. Its been the main thrust of my thoughts throughout the previous managers too, because I have seen it under them too. I have no unconditional view to give Steve Bruce a get out of jail card.....but the amount and consistency of these basic errors has me baffled. I do not accept Steve Bruce or the previous incumbents cannot see, what we see. Why, it continues, what seems like unabated......I am Baffled. Not in a million years, would i think that Steve Bruce would preside over this level of bereft basics and downright poor defensive play. It just seems like we sign new players and they do not change the play....the individual errors still persist. We seem to change our opinions on individuals from week to week such is how fickle their form is......it seems the player out of the team, or on the bench,is always better. it really is an enigma to me. I have no mission to unconditionally defend the manager, but I see something's on matchday, which I believe are the basic responsibility of a professional football player to deal with better than they are......The manager can only do so much. I accept that whether it is right or whether it is wrong, the manager will always carry the can and I also accept the we expect the manager to get them playing, in my opinion he is trying to do that. I also I accept these losses cannot go unchecked ,so some form of change ,at some point will inevitably happen if we do not arrest it. TRO - I would be interested to hear your thoughts about my theory that the problem is a culture of complacency. I know you don't agree with my conclusion to replace the manager, but my theory is my best idea as to why we both see what has you baffled. It is pretty unfathomable that pros can make amateur mistakes week after week after week and remain first choice in a professional team. To me, a culture of complacency is the only explanation that makes sense (unless it's a vodoo curse of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted February 23, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, TRO said: Interesting.... Can you explain what you mean, when you say "setting up collectively" I can't see how we can play collectively until we can win our personal duels, we are forever losing the ball. I do appreciate that there is much more than one thing wrong. But,its like what come first the chicken or the egg. What I mean by it is that we don't seem to have any kind of plan as a team. As a team we don't seem to know how to work the ball out of our own area other than hoofing it. There's such little movement and pressing. We seem to constantly be so deep leaving the striker isolated, and the ball keeps coming back. Fundementally, we're not very good and do not look like a team. We don't seem to have any method of scoring a goal, we seem to be reliant on someone (mainly Kodja) creating something out of nothing. Edited February 23, 2017 by PieFacE 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 minute ago, srsmithusa said: TRO - I would be interested to hear your thoughts about my theory that the problem is a culture of complacency. I know you don't agree with my conclusion to replace the manager, but my theory is my best idea as to why we both see what has you baffled. It is pretty unfathomable that pros can make amateur mistakes week after week after week and remain first choice in a professional team. To me, a culture of complacency is the only explanation that makes sense (unless it's a vodoo curse of course). I don't do curses.....but that does not mean I am any further forward in understanding our collective mistakes. I could not rule out a culture of complacency.....but like so many things with us there are also so many feasible counter arguments. I think confidence is such a weird phenomenon it seems in an effort to replace so many players we have deemed "poor" or not "good enough" we have inadvertently created another kind of problem,that we was not expecting. I am almost beginning to think it's like a bad storm, it will blow itself out eventually irrespective of who the manager is. I think when one or two players are having personal difficulty on match day, you can change it.....when it's a case of " there by the grace of god go I" by just about al of them..... its a challenge that's not so easy to fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post sne Posted February 23, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 minute ago, PieFacE said: What I mean by it is that we don't seem to have any kind of plan as a team. As a team we don't seem to know how to work the ball out of our own area other than hoofing it. There's such little movement and pressing. We seem to constantly be so deep leaving the striker isolated, and the ball keeps coming back. Fundementally, we're not very good and do not look like a team. We don't seem to have any method of scoring a goal, we seem to be reliant on someone (mainly Kodja) creating something out of nothing. Exactly this. We lack a basic system for the players to work under. There are no clear lines to our play. Not in possession, nor when we are defending. This uncertainty makes players nervous and causes mistakes. Fwiw it's been one of many problems under most of our managers since MON, and it's what you get when you hire "motivators" rather than tacticians. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, PieFacE said: What I mean by it is that we don't seem to have any kind of plan as a team. As a team we don't seem to know how to work the ball out of our own area other than hoofing it. There's such little movement and pressing. We seem to constantly be so deep leaving the striker isolated, and the ball keeps coming back. Fundementally, we're not very good and do not look like a team. We don't seem to have any method of scoring a goal, we seem to be reliant on someone (mainly Kodja) creating something out of nothing. Ok I understand what you are seeing. I believe we are seeing the same thing.....but I think we are making suggestions of the source of the fault as differently. My view is just like you it's a team game and it's the interaction between players running on and off the ball in sync and in harmony that works towards that.....but as you infer, it's not happening. I am only giving you my view and that's all, but I think right now it's a bit of catch 22. I see a bunch of players struggling with there own individual game thus affecting the collective force.....I see "hoof ball" as " necessity is the mother of invention "as opposed to a part of a plan. i think we ,in a paradoxical way are so focussed on fixing our own individual player issues, we are forgetting/ failing to play like a team. Its like after a major leg operation, learning to walk again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I think there are so many match day issues, it's hard to list them all. but I also think most are self perpetuating.....get a few of the basics right and lot will disappear. We do appear to be our own worst enemies. If we can avoid allowing ourselves to be so easily closed down and we create space for ourselves to play and we can then string a few passes together, we will be on our way.....further issues will then be easier to fix. we have to fix it in bite size chunks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted February 23, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted February 23, 2017 I back him to finish the season. One thing I would question is getting rid of 3 strikers and replacing them with one who has a poor injury record. This doesn't seem to be joined up thinking. We also had RHM playing silly buggers and Gabby not scoring for years. How many football men, including Bruce, did we have looking at this transfer window masterclass? The Dr should be asking WTF went on. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastie Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 6 minutes ago, TRO said: I think there are so many match day issues, it's hard to list them all. but I also think most are self perpetuating.....get a few of the basics right and lot will disappear. We do appear to be our own worst enemies. If we can avoid allowing ourselves to be so easily closed down and we create space for ourselves to play and we can then string a few passes together, we will be on our way.....further issues will then be easier to fix. we have to fix it in bite size chunks. Confidence is key to success - we need a touch of luck maybe and a couple of wins to lift the gloom , take the pressure off the manager and players and then things can look very different - we know what these lads can achieve when playing with confidence - yes it's tough but the moans and groans can get people down and players can shrink and look for the easy option rather than play their natural game . we can get this turned around and Steve Bruce can get us promoted next season - but we must encourage rather than discourage - people can be too quick to criticise a bad pass at times and players wilt - maybe they should be mentally tougher but we are all in this together and will come through it together - for now Bruce retains my support and will do so whatever happens on Saturday . He needs to turn this around and the best way we can help is to get behind the team totally especially when confidence is low . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted February 23, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted February 23, 2017 24 minutes ago, sne said: Exactly this. We lack a basic system for the players to work under. There are no clear lines to our play. Not in possession, nor when we are defending. This uncertainty makes players nervous and causes mistakes. Fwiw it's been one of many problems under most of our managers since MON, and it's what you get when you hire "motivators" rather than tacticians. Even under MON (who was more motivator than tactician in my book) there was no plan B, now plan A is pretty hard to distinguish. Changing it every couple of weeks doesn't really help. We are a million miles off a player not even having to look and knowing he'll find a player there because it's second nature. Good teams have that. I can't remember the last time we did. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I'm just perplexed at how he can go from completely turning is around and showing sound fundamentals to looking absolutely clueless. What changed? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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