Steve Bruce

[VILLAMARV]

Here's the thing with Bruce for me.

From day one I totally understand any views based on anything like "The football is awful" because it is. He's never walked this league even with his 4 promotions. He has always finished in 2nd about 3 points ahead of 3rd or in the play off spots a few points behind second when he's got promotion. He'll get you "There or thereabouts". Anyone that has been surprised by any of this really hasn't done their homework.

The thing I take against, and always have, is the "We'll NEVER get promoted playing like this" absolutist stuff or "Football has moved on" because Cardiff and Warnock prove this to be hyperbole. As does us finishing 4th despite the majority of games being a bit 'uneasy on the eye' shall we say. As do Bruce's 4 promotions. And Dyche's Burnley and Big Sam's teams etc etc.

One thing is undeniable imo, whichever side of the fence you sit on the manager debate, is that our ball retention is and has been shocking. Consistently, over the last few years. We all want this to improve. Some feel a change of manager would bring this about and others put more stock in laying some blame at the players feet for that.

Now do I think Bruce is the type of leopard who will change his spots? - Well, NO. So I agree with the recent posters saying anyone expecting any of these things to change under him is fooling themselves. If he stays he'll do what he does and what he's always done in management with some different players and if he does, it will be because that's what we're paying him for.

I look back at last season and from my own personal perspective he achieved the minimum of what I expected. I kept voting for play-offs on the poll thingy of where we think we'll finish. I never thought we'd get into the top 2 until around after the Wolves game and obviously we then blew it spectacularly, but at the start of the season I thought we should expect to be in the top 6 and he got us there.

So the football is shit and he got us there or thereabouts. In fact he got us to within 90mins of promotion. With Kodjia, Jedinak, Terry and Grealish missing for huge chunks of the season too. And yes, that's what we have a squad for, but it's still a fact.

On the flip side with Bruce though he's turned the club around. We were floundering and he's made us competitive. Take a long hard look at Sunderland and realise just how close we were to doing that under RDM. From the outside looking in it seems Terry and Snodgrass had a massively positive effect on the squad off the pitch and the vibe has been one of the players enjoying playing for him. The best thing for me is we can take throw ins again and actually keep the ball! Ha, "low bar you're setting there Marv" I hear you cry - well yes it is isn't it and isn't it frankly a %$&^*ing joke that we had to watch professional footballers for 4 or 5 years totally unable to do the basics right. Set pieces have improved at both ends of the pitch. We lost that unshakeable knack of conceding late in games. We tend to win if we get our noses in front now. There may be nothing to get overly excited about there but it all matters. None of it gets us promotion. But it maters to me and I love this club.

And then there's the FFP situation - which - when it comes to managers people seem to ignore the finances. It wont be cheap to sack Bruce and his backroom staff and replace them with all new faces, in fact, it is part of what has crippled us financially since MON left. The club needed (and arguably still needs) stability, not just from a team building perspective, but financially. If it is possible (and I accept it's a massive if) to sort out the finances and keep hold of Jack and part of that was keeping Bruce, what would people honestly do? He's proven to me he can wheel and deal in the cheap end of the market and loan market for players well, better than he can spend £8-12m (Scott Hogan I'm looking at you!) in fact. He has sold the right faces so far and added bodies in positions we needed strengthening. On the whole, I think he sees what we see. People called him crazy last summer for saying he wanted to build a team around Jack. How does that look now exactly?

It's massively complicated, more complicated than "the football is crap, we need to get rid" and it always has been.

And I still think people's expectations (which seem to be built around financial clout) are what drives their disappointment. not as a POP, just that if you were DEMANDING promotion all season then you're not going to be very happy right now are you.

I wouldn't get rid of him myself at this point. Does that mean I'm saying "he just needs a pre-season" well, no. The thing that's changed for me is that I wouldn't be against getting rid, whereas I felt the calls for his head this season were a bit hasty. However much people can point at the lack of promotion and cite it as proof of them being right. And however much I can agree that you all were right in hindsight. In reality the margins were so fine it is as close to a 50-50 as you could get imho. And that's where I think we are with Bruce. As close to a 50-50 call as Xia can get. The good stuff is there to see and the bad stuff is there to see.

If he went now or if he stayed now I'd be behind Xia 100% whatever. I think he's been given a fair crack at it and at the same time, financially needing to batten down the hatches may mean sticking with the devil we know. And having thought on it it kind of revolves around keeping Jack or not for me. He's actually the manager out of all of them that has got him to step it all up and put in consistent performances. People are a little quick to overlook that sort of thing.

One thing is for sure, IF Bruce is here next season he's going to have to have us flying out of the blocks.

Having read Xia's message the other day though I think he might be headed for the door. Just a hunch.

 

[pintpotvilla]

2 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said:

This is just nonsense. We would have had something to thank him for if he had got us promoted.

But Bruce, with Wyness and Xia, has left us in the shit, and that will possibly take seasons to overcome.

I think, as time passes, we will look back on Bruce's tenure here and realise he did a worse job than we thought, even at the time.

Wow Antrim big words I'm afraid in football everything has to happen now for the "fan". Sometimes it just doesn't happen like that. I think Bruce will stay and i think he will succeed,

Just my view ( probably nonsense of course)

[pintpotvilla]

7 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

Here's the thing with Bruce for me.

From day one I totally understand any views based on anything like "The football is awful" because it is. He's never walked this league even with his 4 promotions. He has always finished in 2nd about 3 points ahead of 3rd or in the play off spots a few points behind second when he's got promotion. He'll get you "There or thereabouts". Anyone that has been surprised by any of this really hasn't done their homework.

The thing I take against, and always have, is the "We'll NEVER get promoted playing like this" absolutist stuff or "Football has moved on" because Cardiff and Warnock prove this to be hyperbole. As does us finishing 4th despite the majority of games being a bit 'uneasy on the eye' shall we say. As do Bruce's 4 promotions. And Dyche's Burnley and Big Sam's teams etc etc.

One thing is undeniable imo, whichever side of the fence you sit on the manager debate, is that our ball retention is and has been shocking. Consistently, over the last few years. We all want this to improve. Some feel a change of manager would bring this about and others put more stock in laying some blame at the players feet for that.

Now do I think Bruce is the type of leopard who will change his spots? - Well, NO. So I agree with the recent posters saying anyone expecting any of these things to change under him is fooling themselves. If he stays he'll do what he does and what he's always done in management with some different players and if he does, it will be because that's what we're paying him for.

I look back at last season and from my own personal perspective he achieved the minimum of what I expected. I kept voting for play-offs on the poll thingy of where we think we'll finish. I never thought we'd get into the top 2 until around after the Wolves game and obviously we then blew it spectacularly, but at the start of the season I thought we should expect to be in the top 6 and he got us there.

So the football is shit and he got us there or thereabouts. In fact he got us to within 90mins of promotion. With Kodjia, Jedinak, Terry and Grealish missing for huge chunks of the season too. And yes, that's what we have a squad for, but it's still a fact.

On the flip side with Bruce though he's turned the club around. We were floundering and he's made us competitive. Take a long hard look at Sunderland and realise just how close we were to doing that under RDM. From the outside looking in it seems Terry and Snodgrass had a massively positive effect on the squad off the pitch and the vibe has been one of the players enjoying playing for him. The best thing for me is we can take throw ins again and actually keep the ball! Ha, "low bar you're setting there Marv" I hear you cry - well yes it is isn't it and isn't it frankly a %$&^*ing joke that we had to watch professional footballers for 4 or 5 years totally unable to do the basics right. Set pieces have improved at both ends of the pitch. We lost that unshakeable knack of conceding late in games. We tend to win if we get our noses in front now. There may be nothing to get overly excited about there but it all matters. None of it gets us promotion. But it maters to me and I love this club.

And then there's the FFP situation - which - when it comes to managers people seem to ignore the finances. It wont be cheap to sack Bruce and his backroom staff and replace them with all new faces, in fact, it is part of what has crippled us financially since MON left. The club needed (and arguably still needs) stability, not just from a team building perspective, but financially. If it is possible (and I accept it's a massive if) to sort out the finances and keep hold of Jack and part of that was keeping Bruce, what would people honestly do? He's proven to me he can wheel and deal in the cheap end of the market and loan market for players well, better than he can spend £8-12m (Scott Hogan I'm looking at you!) in fact. He has sold the right faces so far and added bodies in positions we needed strengthening. On the whole, I think he sees what we see. People called him crazy last summer for saying he wanted to build a team around Jack. How does that look now exactly?

It's massively complicated, more complicated than "the football is crap, we need to get rid" and it always has been.

And I still think people's expectations (which seem to be built around financial clout) are what drives their disappointment. not as a POP, just that if you were DEMANDING promotion all season then you're not going to be very happy right now are you.

I wouldn't get rid of him myself at this point. Does that mean I'm saying "he just needs a pre-season" well, no. The thing that's changed for me is that I wouldn't be against getting rid, whereas I felt the calls for his head this season were a bit hasty. However much people can point at the lack of promotion and cite it as proof of them being right. And however much I can agree that you all were right in hindsight. In reality the margins were so fine it is as close to a 50-50 as you could get imho. And that's where I think we are with Bruce. As close to a 50-50 call as Xia can get. The good stuff is there to see and the bad stuff is there to see.

If he went now or if he stayed now I'd be behind Xia 100% whatever. I think he's been given a fair crack at it and at the same time, financially needing to batten down the hatches may mean sticking with the devil we know. And having thought on it it kind of revolves around keeping Jack or not for me. He's actually the manager out of all of them that has got him to step it all up and put in consistent performances. People are a little quick to overlook that sort of thing.

One thing is for sure, IF Bruce is here next season he's going to have to have us flying out of the blocks.

Having read Xia's message the other day though I think he might be headed for the door. Just a hunch.

 

I think this post sums it up brilliantly well said

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, pacbuddies said:

Bruce's strategy (if you can call it that) is flawed and unsustainable. A good article in MOMS sums up exactly what I think of him.

https://www.myoldmansaid.com/aston-villas-flawed-and-wasteful-championship-strategy-analysed/

You would think bruce had us finishing 14th not 4th onw game away from PL. I dont want anymore instanikity if possible and i dint think Bruce deserves the sack. If he is hapoy to work under a smaller budget and with the younger players in hapoy for him to stay.

[blandy]

12 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

I don’t believe Steve Bruce can take us forwards. Even if the game last Saturday had gone our way, we would still have had an aging squad that didn’t have the quality or legs for the Premier League and we would still have needed a big rebuild. Ok we would have been better off financially, on the face of it, but we would have had to spend a huge amount of money and so probably been no better off in the main. 

The rebuild has to start now. We need to build a football culture throughout the club, that everyone involved buys into and understands. I very much doubt that can be achieved with Steve Bruce and nor do I  know who it can be achieved with. We will see if anyone at the club does. 

Wyness said that we needed to build a team for promotion, another for staying up and a third to challenge for the top. Ok I understand that we will need to improve the quality for each stage but the basic culture needs to stay consistent, even if the personnel don’t. That is the continuity that the club needs, not just keeping hold of the same people who aren’t able to move is forward. And if you’re not going forward that generally means that before long  you’re going backwards. 

This is an excellent post, IMO. Because I think it captures the exact issue the club/board has to reconcile. We know that the football side of the club had and has 2 aims. Obviously promotion and then also they’ve talked about longer term implementing an across the board, at all levels, consistent style of play - a recognisable “Villa way” of playing. Up until last week they were doing that below the first team, but deliberately going with a different, short term, “just get us up” approach with splash the cash, RDM & Steve Bruce and the first team. Clearly that first team way has failed to meet its aim. It can’t be repeated, because finances are not allowed to be made available to try it again because of FFP.

Furthermore, the first team, again because of FFP, has to lose about 17 million pounds in wages (that’s how much our parachute payment drops by) and on top of that make about 20 million profit from sales (to cover operating losses). You can play with the figures, but overall there’s an absolute necessity to either cut costs or raise income to “correct” for the club having premier league costs on championship income.

So there’s absolutely no way on this earth that the club has any other choice than to try and implement this “Villa way” style into the first team as well, now. It would seem to me that keeping Steve Bruce is wholly incompatible with following that unavoidable path. He just is not the type of manager to follow through on the approach already in place with the U-23s and youth teams.

i guess the coin flip in their minds is really all about the ripples that will follow from the logical outcome of that fact - i.e. there’s an element of security with thinking about sticking with Bruce, an element of somehow postponing the plan, of hoping against hope that “give it another season of similar tactics and style, with another set of cobbled together loanees and hope to get a bit luckier”. If they go for what they’ve said is the long term aim of this coherent approach, that straw of security isn’t there. It will feel like a leap into the unknown, even though it’s their stated aim and plan.

The enormity of the failure to go up, the repercussions, hasn’t really started yet, but it will. Money and FFP means start again, from scratch, doing it properly this time. Not by big wages and fees, but by using scouting, the training ground, the youth and U-23 development, Steve Round, the lure of the name, the stadium and fanbase to attract players and people for a longer term regeneration of the club from a solid footing.

It’s just that right now it feels very shakey underfoot.

so really there are 3 conceivable ways that things could go from the owners point of view

1. Bruce out, appoint a manager to implement this long term plan they’ve talked about. Best players leave because of FFP imperatives.

2. Bruce given another go, they try and muddle through, repeating the same approach as the last 2 seasons, but with no money, and best players gone.

3. Abandon ship, put the club up for sale, leave it for the next owner to worry about, write it off as a fun but costly fad.

All the options are bad from a supporters point of view, but 1 is the one with the most hope. 2 & 3 are dreadful.

[sne]

4 minutes ago, blandy said:

This is an excellent post, IMO. Because I think it captures the exact issue the club/board has to reconcile. We know that the football side of the club had and has 2 aims. Obviously promotion and then also they’ve talked about longer term implementing an across the board, at all levels, consistent style of play - a recognisable “Villa way” of playing. Up until last week they were doing that below the first team, but deliberately going with a different, short term, “just get us up” approach with splash the cash, RDM & Steve Bruce and the first team. Clearly that first team way has failed to meet its aim. It can’t be repeated, because finances are not allowed to be made available to try it again because of FFP.

Furthermore, the first team, again because of FFP, has to lose about 17 million pounds in wages (that’s how much our parachute payment drops by) and on top of that make about 20 million profit from sales (to cover operating losses). You can play with the figures, but overall there’s an absolute necessity to either cut costs or raise income to “correct” for the club having premier league costs on championship income.

So there’s absolutely no way on this earth that the club has any other choice than to try and implement this “Villa way” style into the first team as well, now. It would seem to me that keeping Steve Bruce is wholly incompatible with following that unavoidable path. He just is not the type of manager to follow through on the approach already in place with the U-23s and youth teams.

i guess the coin flip in their minds is really all about the ripples that will follow from the logical outcome of that fact - i.e. there’s an element of security with thinking about sticking with Bruce, an element of somehow postponing the plan, of hoping against hope that “give it another season of similar tactics and style, with another set of cobbled together loanees and hope to get a bit luckier”. If they go for what they’ve said is the long term aim of this coherent approach, that straw of security isn’t there. It will feel like a leap into the unknown, even though it’s their stated aim and plan.

The enormity of the failure to go up, the repercussions, hasn’t really started yet, but it will. Money and FFP means start again, from scratch, doing it properly this time. Not by big wages and fees, but by using scouting, the training ground, the youth and U-23 development, Steve Round, the lure of the name, the stadium and fanbase to attract players and people for a longer term regeneration of the club from a solid footing.

It’s just that right now it feels very shakey underfoot.

so really there are 3 conceivable ways that things could go from the owners point of view

1. Bruce out, appoint a manager to implement this long term plan they’ve talked about. Best players leave because of FFP imperatives.

2. Bruce given another go, they try and muddle through, repeating the same approach as the last 2 seasons, but with no money, and best players gone.

3. Abandon ship, put the club up for sale, leave it for the next owner to worry about, write it off as a fun but costly fad.

All the options are bad from a supporters point of view, but 1 is the one with the most hope. 2 & 3 are dreadful.

Excellent post!

[pacbuddies]

10 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

You would think bruce had us finishing 14th not 4th onw game away from PL. I dont want anymore instanikity if possible and i dint think Bruce deserves the sack. If he is hapoy to work under a smaller budget and with the younger players in hapoy for him to stay.

4th or 14th isn't the point I am trying to make. His whole approach to football management is short termism with ageing players on expensive contracts playing a very conservative game. He has been at this football management thing for over 20 years and a struggling Villa at the bottom of the Championship is the biggest job he has ever got. There is a reason that no decent Premier League or European league club has ever come in for him and that is because he is a run of the mill bang average plodder with no sustainable model.

[TRO]

35 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

Here's the thing with Bruce for me.

From day one I totally understand any views based on anything like "The football is awful" because it is. He's never walked this league even with his 4 promotions. He has always finished in 2nd about 3 points ahead of 3rd or in the play off spots a few points behind second when he's got promotion. He'll get you "There or thereabouts". Anyone that has been surprised by any of this really hasn't done their homework.

The thing I take against, and always have, is the "We'll NEVER get promoted playing like this" absolutist stuff or "Football has moved on" because Cardiff and Warnock prove this to be hyperbole. As does us finishing 4th despite the majority of games being a bit 'uneasy on the eye' shall we say. As do Bruce's 4 promotions. And Dyche's Burnley and Big Sam's teams etc etc.

One thing is undeniable imo, whichever side of the fence you sit on the manager debate, is that our ball retention is and has been shocking. Consistently, over the last few years. We all want this to improve. Some feel a change of manager would bring this about and others put more stock in laying some blame at the players feet for that.

Now do I think Bruce is the type of leopard who will change his spots? - Well, NO. So I agree with the recent posters saying anyone expecting any of these things to change under him is fooling themselves. If he stays he'll do what he does and what he's always done in management with some different players and if he does, it will be because that's what we're paying him for.

I look back at last season and from my own personal perspective he achieved the minimum of what I expected. I kept voting for play-offs on the poll thingy of where we think we'll finish. I never thought we'd get into the top 2 until around after the Wolves game and obviously we then blew it spectacularly, but at the start of the season I thought we should expect to be in the top 6 and he got us there.

So the football is shit and he got us there or thereabouts. In fact he got us to within 90mins of promotion. With Kodjia, Jedinak, Terry and Grealish missing for huge chunks of the season too. And yes, that's what we have a squad for, but it's still a fact.

On the flip side with Bruce though he's turned the club around. We were floundering and he's made us competitive. Take a long hard look at Sunderland and realise just how close we were to doing that under RDM. From the outside looking in it seems Terry and Snodgrass had a massively positive effect on the squad off the pitch and the vibe has been one of the players enjoying playing for him. The best thing for me is we can take throw ins again and actually keep the ball! Ha, "low bar you're setting there Marv" I hear you cry - well yes it is isn't it and isn't it frankly a %$&^*ing joke that we had to watch professional footballers for 4 or 5 years totally unable to do the basics right. Set pieces have improved at both ends of the pitch. We lost that unshakeable knack of conceding late in games. We tend to win if we get our noses in front now. There may be nothing to get overly excited about there but it all matters. None of it gets us promotion. But it maters to me and I love this club.

And then there's the FFP situation - which - when it comes to managers people seem to ignore the finances. It wont be cheap to sack Bruce and his backroom staff and replace them with all new faces, in fact, it is part of what has crippled us financially since MON left. The club needed (and arguably still needs) stability, not just from a team building perspective, but financially. If it is possible (and I accept it's a massive if) to sort out the finances and keep hold of Jack and part of that was keeping Bruce, what would people honestly do? He's proven to me he can wheel and deal in the cheap end of the market and loan market for players well, better than he can spend £8-12m (Scott Hogan I'm looking at you!) in fact. He has sold the right faces so far and added bodies in positions we needed strengthening. On the whole, I think he sees what we see. People called him crazy last summer for saying he wanted to build a team around Jack. How does that look now exactly?

It's massively complicated, more complicated than "the football is crap, we need to get rid" and it always has been.

And I still think people's expectations (which seem to be built around financial clout) are what drives their disappointment. not as a POP, just that if you were DEMANDING promotion all season then you're not going to be very happy right now are you.

I wouldn't get rid of him myself at this point. Does that mean I'm saying "he just needs a pre-season" well, no. The thing that's changed for me is that I wouldn't be against getting rid, whereas I felt the calls for his head this season were a bit hasty. However much people can point at the lack of promotion and cite it as proof of them being right. And however much I can agree that you all were right in hindsight. In reality the margins were so fine it is as close to a 50-50 as you could get imho. And that's where I think we are with Bruce. As close to a 50-50 call as Xia can get. The good stuff is there to see and the bad stuff is there to see.

If he went now or if he stayed now I'd be behind Xia 100% whatever. I think he's been given a fair crack at it and at the same time, financially needing to batten down the hatches may mean sticking with the devil we know. And having thought on it it kind of revolves around keeping Jack or not for me. He's actually the manager out of all of them that has got him to step it all up and put in consistent performances. People are a little quick to overlook that sort of thing.

One thing is for sure, IF Bruce is here next season he's going to have to have us flying out of the blocks.

Having read Xia's message the other day though I think he might be headed for the door. Just a hunch.

 

What a brilliantly balanced rendition....I am totally at ease with all that.

your highlighting of Basic stuff is right....but for me all season, i have had a jaundiced view on our ability in the air and subsequently enhance our grip on initiative.

That is not to say i want the ball, constantly in the air.....but I think it is commensurate with dominating as opposed to containing.

There is undoubtedly a need for containing at times.....we resorted/defaulted to it too often in my book.

I hope whoever comes in or Steve continues those changes will be seen....also considering the names we attracted, I thought our first touch and ball control on the whole was iffy.

[StefanAVFC]

26 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

You would think bruce had us finishing 14th not 4th onw game away from PL. I dont want anymore instanikity if possible and i dint think Bruce deserves the sack. If he is hapoy to work under a smaller budget and with the younger players in hapoy for him to stay.

When has Bruce ever been happy to do either of those things?

[AntrimBlack]

57 minutes ago, pintpotvilla said:

Wow Antrim big words I'm afraid in football everything has to happen now for the "fan". Sometimes it just doesn't happen like that. I think Bruce will stay and i think he will succeed,

Just my view ( probably nonsense of course)

Apologies. it's an honest view, not nonsense. Uncalled for. Still a bit raw from Saturday.

But I do disagree. I think his tenure has been a failure, and see no reason to think another season will be any different.

[Eastie]

53 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

You would think bruce had us finishing 14th not 4th onw game away from PL. I dont want anymore instanikity if possible and i dint think Bruce deserves the sack. If he is hapoy to work under a smaller budget and with the younger players in hapoy for him to stay.

If he stays and works under the constraints I think a bad spell would soon see his job under pressure and he would be gone - I think the time for Bruce to go is now and we can plan ahead and rebuild somewhat with a lot younger approach and  put a plan into place to move forward albeit maybe taking time to achieve . 

‘If Bruce stays I think it would end in tears early into next season and we will have wasted a summer ,

Bruce is not a manager to bring the kids through - he even got rid of Tom cairney at hull selling him to Blackburn as he didn’t rate him good enough for hull - ironic it was cairney who probably sealed Bruce’s fate at villa . 

[Dave J]

14 hours ago, sharkyvilla said:

I think he can.  Wolves this year were a bit of a one off with their weird Portuguese shenanigans and I suspect the relegated clubs will have trouble like we did with deadwood players that aren't bothered.  I'd certainly back us to get to the play offs again under Bruce.

Wolves were a one off ?  Wouldn't that be due to a free thinking - tactically aware man in charge?  There is no way that I personally would take another gamble on Bruce - seems like we are already lowering the bar if at this stage the play - offs are being mooted as potential target 

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, Dave J said:

seems like we are already lowering the bar if at this stage the play - offs are being mooted as potential target 

We'll do well to get near them, IMO, whoever is manager next season. We've lost half a team, have to sell our best player(s) and can spend almost no money.

[Dave J]

25 minutes ago, blandy said:

We'll do well to get near them, IMO, whoever is manager next season. We've lost half a team, have to sell our best player(s) and can spend almost no money.

Well to be honest I kind of agree - and was generalising in terms of how far we have now fallen.

personally the buck stops four square with Bruce and I really don't believe his managerial style is suited to building a new team with younger less experienced players imo 

[omariqy]

36 minutes ago, blandy said:

We'll do well to get near them, IMO, whoever is manager next season. We've lost half a team, have to sell our best player(s) and can spend almost no money.

I'd definitely take playoffs right now.

[pacbuddies]

1 minute ago, omariqy said:

I'd definitely take playoffs right now.

Could you repeat that please.

[hippo]

56 minutes ago, Dave J said:

Wolves were a one off ?  Wouldn't that be due to a free thinking - tactically aware man in charge?  There is no way that I personally would take another gamble on Bruce - seems like we are already lowering the bar if at this stage the play - offs are being mooted as potential target 

He didn't look very tactically aware against us. He had da costa and afobe on the bench - and tried to play a local derby at walking pace. 

[8pints]

8 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

I must be the only poster left on the site who doesn't want to sack the manager, but nope, still don't. 

 

4 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

 

[Nabby]

2 hours ago, blandy said:

This is an excellent post, IMO. Because I think it captures the exact issue the club/board has to reconcile. We know that the football side of the club had and has 2 aims. Obviously promotion and then also they’ve talked about longer term implementing an across the board, at all levels, consistent style of play - a recognisable “Villa way” of playing. Up until last week they were doing that below the first team, but deliberately going with a different, short term, “just get us up” approach with splash the cash, RDM & Steve Bruce and the first team. Clearly that first team way has failed to meet its aim. It can’t be repeated, because finances are not allowed to be made available to try it again because of FFP.

Furthermore, the first team, again because of FFP, has to lose about 17 million pounds in wages (that’s how much our parachute payment drops by) and on top of that make about 20 million profit from sales (to cover operating losses). You can play with the figures, but overall there’s an absolute necessity to either cut costs or raise income to “correct” for the club having premier league costs on championship income.

So there’s absolutely no way on this earth that the club has any other choice than to try and implement this “Villa way” style into the first team as well, now. It would seem to me that keeping Steve Bruce is wholly incompatible with following that unavoidable path. He just is not the type of manager to follow through on the approach already in place with the U-23s and youth teams.

i guess the coin flip in their minds is really all about the ripples that will follow from the logical outcome of that fact - i.e. there’s an element of security with thinking about sticking with Bruce, an element of somehow postponing the plan, of hoping against hope that “give it another season of similar tactics and style, with another set of cobbled together loanees and hope to get a bit luckier”. If they go for what they’ve said is the long term aim of this coherent approach, that straw of security isn’t there. It will feel like a leap into the unknown, even though it’s their stated aim and plan.

The enormity of the failure to go up, the repercussions, hasn’t really started yet, but it will. Money and FFP means start again, from scratch, doing it properly this time. Not by big wages and fees, but by using scouting, the training ground, the youth and U-23 development, Steve Round, the lure of the name, the stadium and fanbase to attract players and people for a longer term regeneration of the club from a solid footing.

It’s just that right now it feels very shakey underfoot.

so really there are 3 conceivable ways that things could go from the owners point of view

1. Bruce out, appoint a manager to implement this long term plan they’ve talked about. Best players leave because of FFP imperatives.

2. Bruce given another go, they try and muddle through, repeating the same approach as the last 2 seasons, but with no money, and best players gone.

3. Abandon ship, put the club up for sale, leave it for the next owner to worry about, write it off as a fun but costly fad.

All the options are bad from a supporters point of view, but 1 is the one with the most hope. 2 & 3 are dreadful.

In terms of 3 if Xia sold up don't the loss's get wiped away . I read Forrest are now in a good position as selling up last season means all the loss's were wiped away..

Other than that I agree and 2 muddling through with Bruce is just not an option IMO.I also believe the clubs coming down as they weren't sold like us will be stuck with their PL loss's like Sunderland where and won't be buying up the league like we tried .I think this season could be very competitive so even with our issues with the right manager and retaining of some of the squad ( Mostly Grealish) we could still mount an acceptable top 6 challenge.

Forrest made a large profit last season and have Karanka who got Boro up as boss I think they could do well. Shef United talk of more investment from their joint Saudi owners so also could do well. Boro should be top 6 and I think Stoke will be steady enough to get top 6 also but beyond that its going to be a tough league I don't see anyone running away with it which is why with the right appointment we still have some hope beyond just surviving mid table

 

 

[hippo]

Not even listed in the odds to takeover at leeds