The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[VILLAMARV]

 

[snowychap]

10 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

All very interesting links, thanks - let's hope we get to find out whether political theory and political reality match up sooner rather than later.

No probs. Coming at it with sketchy (1990 Politics A Level) knowledge, I found it all quite informative (even if not entirely definitive!).

[mjmooney]

43 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

It would be May's deal vs remain surely.

Yeah, I think this is the only way. The No Deal loonies would complain, but tough shit. 

[HanoiVillan]

59 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Well, it could. But if Leave won again, we'd just be back where we were. 

Indeed. I don't see how there can be a referendum until there is a leave option that could pass Parliament that can be put on the ballot. 

[Genie]

23 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Yeah, I think this is the only way. The No Deal loonies would complain, but tough shit. 

I agree, there’s also no point in pretending anymore that we might “no deal”. It obviously not going to happen.

Best route out of the mess as I see it.

1) TM agrees with MP’s that if the public vote for her deal they concur it

2) It goes to the public, remain or May’s deal to leave being only options.

3) Implement the result rapidly.

[snowychap]

9 minutes ago, Genie said:

Implement the result rapidly.

And if May's WA, prepare yourself, for the next two years at least, for more of the same.

Edit: Or worse.

Edited March 23, 2019 by snowychap

[snowychap]

 

[meregreen]

Just got back from the march. Amazing experience. If everything goes tits up in a few weeks, , I will at least feel I did my best to do something to stop the insanity that is Brexit.

Edited March 23, 2019 by meregreen

[OutByEaster?]

Sounds like the PM is done. 

Prime Minister Gove this week?

Ugh.

 

[Demitri_C]

Gove would be worse than may

[Davkaus]

He's like a treacherous mr bean. 

I'm surprised Hammond isn't getting a mention, he's the only member of the cabinet that doesn't seem completely mental. Maybe that's why... 

[ml1dch]

Just now, Davkaus said:

He's like a treacherous mr bean. 

I'm surprised Hammond isn't getting a mention, he's the only member of the cabinet that doesn't seem completely mental. Maybe that's why... 

There are few people more disliked amongst the Conservative party base in the whole of politics than Hammond. 

Give them a choice between Hammond and Corbyn as the next Prime Minister and I wouldn't put money on it being Hammond...

[VILLAMARV]

Quote

May urged to quit to help deal pass

Senior Tories may back the PM's deal if they know she will not lead the next stage of EU negotiations.

Million joined Brexit protest, organisers say

Brexit petitioner gets death threats

'Brexit will define UK'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

Possibly the wrong thread and just me being me, but the juxtaposition of these headlines made me think Brexit? Who needs Brexit to define the UK when a headline about sycophants cozying up to sociopaths for a bit of power, people complaining about it and then people threatening those who complain about it sums us up quite well.

[ml1dch]

13 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Indeed. I don't see how there can be a referendum until there is a leave option that could pass Parliament that can be put on the ballot. 

I'd argue that's the wrong way round. A leave option that could pass Parliament doesn't need the additional faff of the referendum. It just passes and we deal with the consequences of that decision, for good or (inevitably) ill.

The referendum would be to demonstrate to all the MPs who currently don't want to vote for the withdrawal agreement that they should change their position to vote in favour.

[Villarocker]

18 hours ago, jackbauer24 said:

A PeoplesVote is NOT a Remain standpoint. Or it shouldn't be anyway.

A PeoplesVote by its very nature is completely neutral. The most ardent Brexiteer, fearing their Brexit is being taken away or weakened, should welcome a 2nd Referendum. It is the chance for EVERYONE'S viewpoint to be put to the public (clearly this time) and it to be enacted the very next day. So if No Deal is the most popular option we do that the day after the vote.

Fear that people have changed their mind/become wiser/recognised they can't break rules this time/seen evidence of impact already/more youth voting is the only reason not to have a 2nd vote. Preventing that because you're afraid of your public's answer is Undemocratic.

We still vote to Leave and 90% of people would accept it.

That's all well and good if you believe that a "Leave" outcome wouldn't be overruled by rigged voting. There have been voting scandals all over the world in the past so I wouldn't put it past this government, or even moreso, this bunch of MP's, to rig a result in their favour and say that we've voted to remain. 

I do not trust any of our current parliamentarians so that is why I believe the original vote should be honoured. I mean, I wasn't happy that the Tories got in a the last General Election but I didn't go running around screaming for another vote on it.

The leave vote should stand. The problem isn't that we were lied to. The problem is that the corrupt government, aided and abetted by the corrupt MP's, have failed to prepare our country for a no deal scenario. The EU knows this and it's their bargaining chip against us and has allowed them to propose a really shitty withdrawal agreement that ties us to them indefinitely. If we had a leader who was pro-brexit we would have had plans in place immediately for a no deal and the EU would have had to take a much softer stance in the withdrawal agreement. 

We've been cheated and lied to by our MP's and government. 

[peterms]

7 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

Sounds like the PM is done. 

Prime Minister Gove this week?

Ugh.

 

If it's going to be a caretaker, surely the choice must be informed by the play of the same name, appropriately enough, from the Theatre of the Absurd.  This is the caretaker in question.

Quote

Davies manufactures the story of his life, lying or sidestepping some details to avoid telling the whole truth about himself. A non-sequitur. He adjusts aspects of the story of his life according to the people he is trying to impress, influence, or manipulate. As Billington points out, "When Mick suggests that Davies might have been in the services — and even the colonies, Davies retorts: 'I was over there. I was one of the first over there.' He defines himself according to momentary imperatives and other people's suggestions" (122).

Sounds most like Johnson to me, though Smith and Shapps would also fit the description.

[HanoiVillan]

51 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

I'd argue that's the wrong way round. A leave option that could pass Parliament doesn't need the additional faff of the referendum. It just passes and we deal with the consequences of that decision, for good or (inevitably) ill.

The referendum would be to demonstrate to all the MPs who currently don't want to vote for the withdrawal agreement that they should change their position to vote in favour.

It depends who is in government, I would say. If May passes her WA, obviously it won't go to a referendum. However, I am currently expecting that if there is a GE first, Labour will attempt to straddle Remainers and Leavers by promising to renegotiate the WA and PD, and then offering a confirmatory referendum vs. remain. 

[chrisp65]

Just now, villarocker said:

That's all well and good if you believe that a "Leave" outcome wouldn't be overruled by rigged voting. There have been voting scandals all over the world in the past so I wouldn't put it past this government, or even moreso, this bunch of MP's, to rig a result in their favour and say that we've voted to remain. 

I do not trust any of our current parliamentarians so that is why I believe the original vote should be honoured. I mean, I wasn't happy that the Tories got in a the last General Election but I didn't go running around screaming for another vote on it.

The leave vote should stand. The problem isn't that we were lied to. The problem is that the corrupt government, aided and abetted by the corrupt MP's, have failed to prepare our country for a no deal scenario. The EU knows this and it's their bargaining chip against us and has allowed them to propose a really shitty withdrawal agreement that ties us to them indefinitely. If we had a leader who was pro-brexit we would have had plans in place immediately for a no deal and the EU would have had to take a much softer stance in the withdrawal agreement. 

We've been cheated and lied to by our MP's and government. 

It would not be 'rigged' after the voting, their won't be stuffed ballot boxes or selective counting. This government simply doesn't have the competence to organise that on any scale that wouldn't be widely reported within the hour.

What they might try and do, is rig the question or rig the campaign.

Just like last time.

[blandy]

 

[jackbauer24]

26 minutes ago, villarocker said:

That's all well and good if you believe that a "Leave" outcome wouldn't be overruled by rigged voting. There have been voting scandals all over the world in the past so I wouldn't put it past this government, or even moreso, this bunch of MP's, to rig a result in their favour and say that we've voted to remain. 

I do not trust any of our current parliamentarians so that is why I believe the original vote should be honoured. I mean, I wasn't happy that the Tories got in a the last General Election but I didn't go running around screaming for another vote on it.

The leave vote should stand. The problem isn't that we were lied to. The problem is that the corrupt government, aided and abetted by the corrupt MP's, have failed to prepare our country for a no deal scenario. The EU knows this and it's their bargaining chip against us and has allowed them to propose a really shitty withdrawal agreement that ties us to them indefinitely. If we had a leader who was pro-brexit we would have had plans in place immediately for a no deal and the EU would have had to take a much softer stance in the withdrawal agreement. 

We've been cheated and lied to by our MP's and government. 

I. Don't. Know. What. To. Say.

This kind of thinking completely baffles me. It flies in the face of any logic, this isn't a leave standpoint this is downright paranoia in the face of reality and facts.

Let's just point to a few things;

1. If the government are capable of rigging a vote, why didn't they rig the first one?

2. If the government are full of Remainders who want to expunge the result why haven't they done so or guaranteed a 2nd referendum?

3. Why should the EU help us leave the club?

4. The deal was sorted by the UK and the sticking point (backstop) is a UK invention - we put it in!

5. No, if a General Election goes 'badly' you give it some time and then vote again next time. There was a smaller gap between the last two Elections than there would be between the 2 referendums. And lots if people changed their minds in last Election - see our DUP supported government.

I could go on... Whilst I am openly remain, I have tried to interact with Leavers in an open way to get their views. Some, even many, I understand. This viewpoint is just scary stubborn paranoia.