The Rémi Garde thread

[praisedmambo]

12 minutes ago, Richard said:

I dont disagree that the window was a huge let down for him and he was most probably lied to.  I absolutely hold the board and everyone on it in contempt for how they are running Villa.  However,  the lack of tansfer spending did not affect results in November,  December,  and early part of January (actually as the window opened our results got better!).  It is the November and december period where he has failed to get results in games he could have legitimately been expected to get them.  Now January has gone there is of course a ready made excuse but that should not cloud people's memories of the earlier period when he failed.  As I said I would think even mid table championship clubs would have picked up more points than us

A more accurate sentence may be: should not cloud people's memories when he had so far failed to turn around an already dire team rock-bottom of the league. 

 

You're spinning the situation and you've moaned about him since the beginning. The only reason we weren't more points adrift at that stage in the season is that it was still the beginning of the season. We've proven recently that we don't have the players (i.e. a striker) to turn us around even when we've been playing well. 

[markavfc40]

10 hours ago, Richard said:

Nice bloke poor manager . I do not accept that w could not have got more points in his time here. I think a leeds or a Fulham would have got more points

I don’t know if he is a poor manager. It is too soon to judge. I also don’t think he can get a free pass on results since he has been here. In 13 league games we have won one game. Include the cups and it is 2 in 15. His predecessor was sacked for achieving 3 wins in 12 league and cup games and one win in 10 in the league. The argument for sacking Sherwood was that he wasn’t getting enough out of the squad and that being the case neither is Garde for me. I know a lot of our poor results have been down to individual errors but you could put that case forward for Sherwood as well – Amavi against Palace, Guzan against Leicester and Chelsea, two needless free kicks given away against Sunderland and Swansea.

I genuinely like Garde. He comes across well, talks a good game, seems passionate and at the same time humble. I have some sympathy that he wasn’t backed in January. I don’t know what assurances he was given when he took the job though in terms of funds but what I do know is that when he took over we were 4 points from safety and come the transfer window that gap was 11. The situation had gotten way worse and the fact that players didn’t come wasn’t just down to funding. They didn’t want to come as shown in the case of Doumbia as he chose the much safer bet in Newcastle.

If the opposite were true and I didn't like Garde on a human level and liked how he came across in interviews etc then I’d have to say in the 15 games he has managed we have overall been dire in terms of results and in terms of performances we have tightened up at the back a little, retain possession better but create next to f all. When we get into good positions there is often no one in the box etc.

Bottom line for me is either this squad is that poor that no one could have gotten more than 13 points from 24 games out of it or this squad is better than that and two managers have failed miserably in getting it to play to its potential. For me it is still the latter as I don’t believe this squad is 13 points from 24 games poor and certainly not so poor as to be so far behind the likes of Norwich, Bournemouth, Sunderland and West Brom.

Edited February 3, 2016 by markavfc40

[Richard]

18 minutes ago, praisedmambo said:

A more accurate sentence may be: should not cloud people's memories when he had so far failed to turn around an already dire team rock-bottom of the league. 

 

You're spinning the situation and you've moaned about him since the beginning. The only reason we weren't more points adrift at that stage in the season is that it was still the beginning of the season. We've proven recently that we don't have the players (i.e. a striker) to turn us around even when we've been playing well. 

I did not and do not expect him to turn it around completely.  I've said since before he came he that  my belief was we would be relegated. I did not believe he was right for the job and do not believe he will be right next year in the championship.  That is my belief. 

However,  what I did expect was results (note results not even wins) against the likes of Sunderland,  Norwich, Watford and hopefully for the odd win against other teams. He has won one league game in his time here. Not sure how I can spin that. I'm sorry but even though we are a mess and will get relegated and we will struggle next year too,  he should have done better.  Are our standards that low.  Is our hatred of the board,  as justified as that may be,  so much that it disguises a poor manager?

Edited February 3, 2016 by Richard

[praisedmambo]

13 minutes ago, Richard said:

I did not and do not expect him to turn it around completely.  I've said since before he came he that  my belief was we would be relegated. I did not believe he was right for the job and do not believe he will be right next year in the championship.  That is my belief. 

However,  what I did expect was results (note results not even wins) against the likes of Sunderland,  Norwich, Watford and hopefully for the odd win against other teams. He has won one league game in his time here. Not sure how I can spin that. I'm sorry but even though we are a mess and will get relegated and we will struggle next year too,  he should have done better.  Are our standards that low.  Is our hatred of the board,  as justified as that may be,  so much that it disguises a poor manager?

It's your opinion that he's a poor manager, which you're obviously entitled too. It's clear though that plenty of people think the opposite, whether they're still undecided or whether they are genuinely convinced by him. I think we were in a big mess when he arrived, and I think we're playing well now, and that has convinced me. The players look fitter and more organised—the performances are encouraging. We seem to work as a team and we're suffering mainly for the lack of a striker. We've been denied two obvious penalties in the previous two games and had they been given and had we had an actual striker for much of his time here I think we'd be in a better position.

 

Ayew was missing against Sunderland, I remember. We should have beaten West Ham and Newcastle, if I remember. Okore was injured for a time. We were playing Bacuna at left back for a while—Cissokho coming in from the start of January certainly seems to have contributed to a tighter defence. We never had him in November or January—the bad results over Christmas have a lot of contributing factors: not one minute of Garde's time here has been straightforwards for him. 

Edited February 3, 2016 by praisedmambo

[mykeyb]

I share Richards disdain of the board but just to play devils advocate but if Doumbia was offered more money to come here but went to Newcastle instead I am not sure how that is the fault of the board.

[praisedmambo]

18 minutes ago, Richard said:

Are our standards that low.  Is our hatred of the board,  as justified as that may be,  so much that it disguises a poor manager?

Please don't try and rile me or anyone else up – I imagine we're all pretty bummed out atm. Feel free to talk about your opinions, but please don't try and blanket them up in rhetoric and pretend they're anything but subjective. 

[bobzy]

15 minutes ago, Richard said:

I did not and do not expect him to turn it around completely.  I've said since before he came he that  my belief was we would be relegated. I did not believe he was right for the job and do not believe he will be right next year in the championship.  That is my belief. 

However,  what I did expect was results (note results not even wins) against the likes of Sunderland,  Norwich, Watford and hopefully for the odd win against other teams. He has won one league game in his time here. Not sure how I can spin that. I'm sorry but even though we are a mess and will get relegated and we will struggle next year too,  he should have done better.  Are our standards that low.  Is our hatred of the board,  as justified as that may be,  so much that it disguises a poor manager?

The thing is that your expectation here is clouding your judgement of the manager, but not the players.  Against Norwich we were poor but, against Sunderland, we were largely in control and let down by some crazy luck (Van Aarnholt's deflected effort) and some unbelievably bad defending.  They're simply not even 1% the managers' fault.

You appear to have been actively against Garde from the start - which is an odd stance, to be honest - but I can't see how you're failing to see improvement from when he first came to the club (and didn't know his squad) to now.

Remi Garde will have a successful career as a manager.  Paul Lambert will not.  Tim Sherwood will not.

[praisedmambo]

20 minutes ago, Richard said:

However,  what I did expect was results (note results not even wins) against the likes of Sunderland,  Norwich, Watford and hopefully for the odd win against other teams. 

By your standards we did get 'results' (pretty sure they mean wins?) against the likes of Newcastle, West Ham, Southampton, Crystal Palace, Manchester City.

Watford, btw, was his second game in charge—you didn't give him much time did you? But you, I think, admit, that you were against him from the start. Basically the only games from Garde that went fully terrible were against Sunderland and Norwich...and yet, I feel we have proven how lacking we are throughout the season and it is unreasonable to believe we have a given right to beat any team the way we are. Just think of the number of individual errors that have cost us goals throughout the season. 

[Richard]

5 minutes ago, praisedmambo said:

Please don't try and rile me or anyone else up – I imagine we're all pretty bummed out atm. Feel free to talk about your opinions, but please don't try and blanket them up in rhetoric and pretend they're anything but subjective. 

Rile you up? I am expressing an opinion and attempting to carry out a debate on Aston Villa on an Aston Villa themed site.  I am not insulting or abusive.  I am explaining my opinion.  If you are "getting riled up" because of that then you need to look elsewhere for the reason.

[Zatman]

I think Garde on field performances can be questioned, 2 wins in 15 and one was home to Wycombe, the defence has got better since he got rid of Guzan but the attack is still poor and football is too slow

dont see that much of an improvement

[Dr_Pangloss]

10 minutes ago, praisedmambo said:

Please don't try and rile me or anyone else up – I imagine we're all pretty bummed out atm. Feel free to talk about your opinions, but please don't try and blanket them up in rhetoric and pretend they're anything but subjective. 

[NeilS]

13 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Remi Garde will have a successful career as a manager.  Paul Lambert will not.  Tim Sherwood will not.

I think Garde has had a slow start here, but my gut feeling about him is that he is a better appointment than either of McLeish or Lambert, and most definately better than Sherwood who was a terrible appointment.

Reading up on Garde's time at Lyon, it would appear that he started slowly in that job too as he was fire fighting back then as well, before steadying the ship and winning people over. He has had even bigger issues here than Lyon, and his job has not been made any easier by experienced professional footballers making way too many individual errors than they should be. That is something he can have no control over, so with that in mind I am willing to cut Remi some slack.

He needed backing in this window to bring in more reliable players, and he has been failed badly by the board. I personally hope he sticks with us as I do think with the pre-season under his belt and some more time moulding the squad that he can improve things. Sadly I think he will become the latest victim/fallguy for the board and won't be here next season and we will be back to square one.

[Richard]

5 minutes ago, bobzy said:

The thing is that your expectation here is clouding your judgement of the manager, but not the players.  Against Norwich we were poor but, against Sunderland, we were largely in control and let down by some crazy luck (Van Aarnholt's deflected effort) and some unbelievably bad defending.  They're simply not even 1% the managers' fault.

You appear to have been actively against Garde from the start - which is an odd stance, to be honest - but I can't see how you're failing to see improvement from when he first came to the club (and didn't know his squad) to now.

Remi Garde will have a successful career as a manager.  Paul Lambert will not.  Tim Sherwood will not.

Yes I would say my expectation clouding judgement,  isnt that what expectation is? A way of establishing what you, well expect, and then measuring achievement against? In terms of the players then I am not saying they are world beaters but what I am saying,  similar to Mark,  is that I do not believe they are double digit points worse than other teams in this league and certainly able ,  or should be able, to compete against Norwich ,  Sunderland etc.  If not then my suggestions of struggle next year would appear to be an over estimation of what will happen!  Bad defending not being 1% the managers fault I have to disagree with you.  I mean what is he to be blamed for if not how the team perform and one of those being how they defend.  You've suggested we have improved,  others have said we are tighter at the back.  If so why does he get credit for that and not blame for poor defending? 

[praisedmambo]

1 minute ago, Richard said:

Rile you up? I am expressing an opinion and attempting to carry out a debate on Aston Villa on an Aston Villa themed site.  I am not insulting or abusive.  I am explaining my opinion.  If you are "getting riled up" because of that then you need to look elsewhere for the reason.

"Are we not so blinded by our hate of the board to see the French devil in our midst who cannot train a football team to pull non-existent rabbits out of the hat?!" That sounds like riling up rhetoric to me more than debate. (Ok I may have exaggerated for effect, but the point I was making is surely obvious? — expressing your opinion sounds a little different). 

[tonyh29]

I'm still torn on him .. I pretty much agree with everything MarkAVFC40 has written above

 

But a very  small part of me thinks put Moyes in charge tomorrow and we stand a fighting chance of winning 7 or 8 of the remaining fixtures  , I think he'd play more direct , with more aggression and worry teams in a way our current style doesn't  .. With Garde we just seem to be " almost " getting results and making some progress without ever actually delivering on that progress

and for life in the championship next season , again I'm not sure that the way Garde wants to play will get us out of that division 

 

 

[blandy]

45 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I don’t know if he is a poor manager. It is too soon to judge. I also don’t think he can get a free pass on results since he has been here. In 13 league games we have won one game. Include the cups and it is 2 in 15. His predecessor was sacked for achieving 3 wins in 12 league and cup games and one win in 10 in the league. The argument for sacking Sherwood was that he wasn’t getting enough out of the squad and that being the case neither is Garde for me. I know a lot of our poor results have been down to individual errors but you could put that case forward for Sherwood as well – Amavi against Palace, Guzan against Leicester, two needless free kicks given away against Sunderland and Swansea.

I genuinely like Garde. He comes across well, talks a good game, seems passionate and at the same time humble. I have some sympathy that he wasn’t backed in January. I don’t know what assurances he was given when he took the job though in terms of funds but what I do know is that when he took over we were 4 points from safety and come the transfer window that gap was 11. The situation had gotten way worse and the fact that players didn’t come wasn’t just down to funding. They didn’t want to come as shown in the case of Doumbia as he chose the much safer bet in Newcastle.

If the opposite were true and I didn't like Garde on a human level and liked how he came across in interviews etc then I’d have to say in the 15 games he has managed we have overall been dire in terms of results and in terms of performances we have tightened up at the back a little, retain possession better but create next to f all. When we get into good positions there is often no one in the box etc.

Bottom line for me is either this squad is that poor that no one could have gotten more than 13 points from 24 games out of it or this squad is better than that and two managers have failed miserably in getting it to play to its potential. For me it is still the latter as I don’t believe this squad is 13 points from 24 games poor and certainly not so poor as to be so far behind the likes of Norwich, Bournemouth, Sunderland and West Brom.

Good post. I agree with all of it apart from the bit I've bolded. I think I take the opposite view - I do think the squad is so poor that whoever was manager would not do any better. I think for the past few seasons we've been fighting the drop, we then lost the better players from the squad, and in particular the bloke who scored the goals that kept us up for last 2 seasons, and didn't replace them with the same/better quality. The squad does not have goals in it. Ergo it won't score, ergo it will lose a lot of games. No manager can change that.

Remi Garde is not the messiah, but he looks to have the makings of being a good manager and coach. He needs material to work with that gives him a chance of being in a "fair race". He doesn't have that.

[Rob182]

so if we had a starting 11 consisting of this line-up we wouldnt be in this mess?

Guzan/Bunn

Amavi Richards Lescott Cissokho

  Gana Bacuna

Traore Gil  Ayew 

No Zatman, if you read my full original post, you will see that I note that our issue is a number of problems resulting in us 'not playing as a team' often enough.

[bobzy]

8 minutes ago, Richard said:

Yes I would say my expectation clouding judgement,  isnt that what expectation is? A way of establishing what you, well expect, and then measuring achievement against? In terms of the players then I am not saying they are world beaters but what I am saying,  similar to Mark,  is that I do not believe they are double digit points worse than other teams in this league and certainly able ,  or should be able, to compete against Norwich ,  Sunderland etc.  If not then my suggestions of struggle next year would appear to be an over estimation of what will happen!  Bad defending not being 1% the managers fault I have to disagree with you.  I mean what is he to be blamed for if not how the team perform and one of those being how they defend.  You've suggested we have improved,  others have said we are tighter at the back.  If so why does he get credit for that and not blame for poor defending? 

I don't think anyone believes they are double digit points worse than other teams in the league - but then we have competed against Sunderland?  Unless, of course, "competing" in your world means "not losing to", in which case we have competed with Man City, Southampton, West Ham, Leicester - all top 7 teams.  Garde has lost 6 in 13 league games.  This may not sound great but, prior to his appointment, we lost 8 in 10 and confidence was rock bottom.

What he's done is make us more solid whilst understanding the squad and the players he has to work with. Do I think we'd be as far adrift as we are if Garde was in place at the start of the season?  Absolutely not.

I can only assume you're trolling with the defending comments, by the way.  Unless you're saying Bacuna throwing the ball to a Sunderland player is somehow attributable to the manager - in which case, you're entirely wrong.

[rubberman]

As is often the case with clubs at the bottom, pretty much everything has gone against us.  

Injuries - granted every club has these, but Amavi just has he was settling in and Adama just as he was beginning to get played have been significant.  Okore too, though Tim had that as well.

Refereeing - 3 pens not given in 3 games, all at key times in the match.

Add to that deflected goals against and the lack of anyone that can score for us and I can't see that there was much more that Remi could do.  The Norwich selection is the only mistake for me, but given the fixture congestion he had to give a go to the squad players - only to find that they were not even remotely good enough.

Having said that I agree that we shouldn't be where we are in comparison to the other shite in the league this year.  How many times have we said the other team is there for the taking?  It's a terrible league pretty much top to bottom and yet we are miles adrift.  Main problem is no-one to score the goals - Afobe in on Jan 2nd and we'd be planning the great escape IMO.

[Jareth]

Timing is everything and perhaps Remi has come to the villa at the wrong moment. A shame if he goes, but we move on, dare I say, go again.