Gun violence in the USA

[bobzy]

46 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

I think being willing to use a weapon defensively in a life or death situation is a different question from whether it’s sensible to own a gun.

Personally I would not own a gun because the odds are higher that it is involved in killing an innocent person (through accident, suicide, murder) than saving your life.

But that doesn’t mean it’s “ludicrous” to be prepared to attack or kill an intruder in the most extreme self defence situations, surely?

But that isn't just someone in your house, right?

What are the chances that someone breaks into your home seeking to murder you?  It's nonsense.  They'd be coming to steal stuff and they'd be welcome to steal stuff if it meant I avoided a shoot off.

[Panto_Villan]

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

I take it you read the quotes?  I said "you'd be actively willing to shoot people" and he replied "Correct.  If someone broke into my house with a gun...".  It wasn't a nuanced answer of "I'd 100% want to own a gun purely because there could be a situation where it's life or death".  If that's what @pas5898 meant then it's a misunderstanding...

 

 

...although I still wouldn't want to be owning a gun "just in case".

Yeah, I read the quotes. You asked if he was willing to shoot someone - and if all options are on the table, by definition he would need to be willing to shoot someoney. But that's not the same as actively seeking an opportunity to do it.

Seems like a simple misunderstanding to me!

[PussEKatt]

IMHO,the point is,that if you live in a country where everyone owns a gun,then you must owne one as well

If yiou live in a country where everyone carries a knife.then you must carry a knife also.

If you live in a country where people dont carry knives or guns then there is no need for you to be armed.

[tomav84]

2 minutes ago, PussEKatt said:

IMHO,the point is,that if you live in a country where everyone owns a gun,then you must owne one as well

unfortunately therein lies the problem. i wonder how many americans despise guns but own one out of what they feel as a necessity

[Panto_Villan]

3 minutes ago, PussEKatt said:

IMHO,the point is,that if you live in a country where everyone owns a gun,then you must owne one as well

If yiou live in a country where everyone carries a knife.then you must carry a knife also.

If you live in a country where people dont carry knives or guns then there is no need for you to be armed.

I think the point most people here are making is that it's understandable to want to carry a gun / knife if everyone else has one, but it's still a bad idea to do it. Statistically it's more likely to endanger your life than save it.

[bobzy]

6 minutes ago, PussEKatt said:

IMHO,the point is,that if you live in a country where everyone owns a gun,then you must owne one as well

If yiou live in a country where everyone carries a knife.then you must carry a knife also.

If you live in a country where people dont carry knives or guns then there is no need for you to be armed.

I think this is what I disagree with.  It wouldn't make me feel safer carrying a weapon on me "just in case".

[PussEKatt]

When in Rome.

[Panto_Villan]

2 minutes ago, PussEKatt said:

When in Rome.

Even in America, two thirds of people don't own guns. So presumably when in America, don't buy a gun?

[JoshVilla]

It's a problem that the second amendment itself has created.

Everyone has a right to bear arms, so it's very easy for anybody who is radicalised in some way to get hold of a gun. Therefore, your average citizen feels the need to own weapons themselves to protect against a problem that their beloved constitution has created.

It's a sorry state of affairs and I honestly think that the problem is so far gone that I can't see how it can be fixed. Either way, something absolutely has to be done.

[AXD]

26 minutes ago, bobzy said:

But that isn't just someone in your house, right?

What are the chances that someone breaks into your home seeking to murder you?  It's nonsense.  They'd be coming to steal stuff and they'd be welcome to steal stuff if it meant I avoided a shoot off.

my guess is, when a thief gets caught or seen breaking into a house or stealing, chances of him running are higher than him pulling a gun and killing everyone. There is a big difference between theft and murder, it takes a different kind of criminal.

[maqroll]

3 hours ago, osmark86 said:

It's not just the shootings though. It's the raw capitalistic nature of the country, the two-party political system, ridiculous healthcare system, for-profit prison system, widespread religious fanaticism, crumbling infrastructure, crumbling educational system...

To me it just seems like such an exploitative country.

I spent a year in university abroad there when I was much younger (in South Carolina) and while I had a good time there and met some lovely people it's not a place I would want to return to. Especially not to settle down. I know the US is a large place with different states and different legislature, but the states have more in common culturally than it has differences in my point of view.

You don't have to tell me all that, I'm deeply familiar with it, and all those problems are getting worse.

School teachers with Master's degrees make a fraction of what police do and that says it all. 

The GOP wants to obliterate public education entirely. They'd rather young people go straight to prison where they can make money off of them. 

[KentVillan]

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

But that isn't just someone in your house, right?

What are the chances that someone breaks into your home seeking to murder you?  It's nonsense.  They'd be coming to steal stuff and they'd be welcome to steal stuff if it meant I avoided a shoot off.

You’re right, the chances are extremely low, but not zero.

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt
 

Quote

An estimated 3.7 million household burglaries occurred each
year on average from 2003 to 2007. In about 28% of these
burglaries, a household member was present during the burglary.
In 7% of all household burglaries, a household member
experienced some form of violent victimization (figure 1).

What would you do if cornered in that situation and required to protect your family?

And please note, I’m not justifying owning a gun - just saying whether violence in self defence may or may not be justified.

[PussEKatt]

33 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Even in America, two thirds of people don't own guns. So presumably when in America, don't buy a gun?

Sounds like a very safe idear to me.

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, KentVillan said:

You’re right, the chances are extremely low, but not zero.

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt
 

What would you do if cornered in that situation and required to protect your family?

And please note, I’m not justifying owning a gun - just saying whether violence in self defence may or may not be justified.

"Simple assault (15%) was the most common form of violence when a resident was home and violence occurred"
"Serious injury accounted for 9% and minor injury accounted for 36% of injuries sustained by household members who were home and experienced violence during a completed burglary"
"Offenders were known to their victims in 65% of violent burglaries"

I don't know what all of these percentages add up to in terms of likelihood and/or the person being home producing a weapon and escalating the situation.

 

What would I do if cornered in that situation?  I don't know.  It's a very tough question to answer.  You'd essentially be trying to get your family safe, I imagine.

[OutByEaster?]

It should be possible to retain the right to bear arms and reduce gun ownership at the same time through proper taxation. 

If you put a massive tax on gun and ammunition purchases in the same way that you do on the sale of other harmful products, like cigarettes, then you can start to limit the sales of new guns, once you've got that on the move, then you can start to really make a push at confiscating and destroying illegally owned or unregistered guns and in doing so, over a very long period of time, (and this will take decades no matter how you do it) reduce the amount of guns there are out there on the streets of the US.

Personally, I'd love to put the responsibility onto gun manufacturers - "You, Heckler & Koch, have a responsibility to ensure that your product is used responsibly and will pay a fine of $500,000 dollars every time there's a civilian death associated with one of your products" - that would make a difference.

Of course, that would go against that other great American principle - don't empower your government to act for the benefit of the population where it might stop rich folks becoming richer.

 

[choffer]

1 hour ago, JoshVilla said:

It's a sorry state of affairs and I honestly think that the problem is so far gone that I can't see how it can be fixed. Either way, something absolutely has to be done

Sandy Hook was the tipping point. That’s where America decided it was worth kids dying to protect their 2nd amendment rights. A very sorry state of affairs. 

[osmark86]

1 hour ago, maqroll said:

You don't have to tell me all that, I'm deeply familiar with it, and all those problems are getting worse.

School teachers with Master's degrees make a fraction of what police do and that says it all. 

The GOP wants to obliterate public education entirely. They'd rather young people go straight to prison where they can make money off of them. 

Yeah I really feel for decent working class Americans with basic empathy (I include middle class into working class fyi). The GOP is downright sociopathic and terrifying. They're basically a neoliberal fascist party these days.

[sidcow]

16 hours ago, theboyangel said:

Guaranteed he stands up whilst wiping.... 

 

[KentVillan]

3 hours ago, bobzy said:

But that isn't just someone in your house, right?

What are the chances that someone breaks into your home seeking to murder you?  It's nonsense.  They'd be coming to steal stuff and they'd be welcome to steal stuff if it meant I avoided a shoot off.

Weirdly, this (horrific) story is in the news today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65062565

Quote

A man has been found guilty of murdering a 71-year-old who mistook his home for a B&B and got into his bed.

Margaret Barnes, from Birmingham, died following the attack last July while she was visiting Barmouth, Gwynedd.

David Redfern, 46, found Mrs Barnes asleep in his bedroom and dragged her downstairs by her feet before kicking and stamping her to death.

Redfern denied murder but was found guilty after a trial at Caernarfon Crown Court.

Mrs Barnes had been out drinking with friends and had been planning to stay at a B&B on Marine Parade, where Redfern lived.

She mistakenly went into Redfern's house and went straight to his bedroom and fell asleep.

Michael Jones, prosecuting, described that as a "mistake that ultimately cost her her life".

After returning home and finding Mrs Barnes in his bed, Redfern, who had self-confessed anger issues, dragged her downstairs by her ankles.

Redfern, a 6ft 1in (1.85m) man who weighed 21 stone (133kg), then kicked and stamped on Mrs Barnes, breaking numerous ribs.

She died at the scene.

Which backs up your point that more often than not, violence isn't the answer, and shows how dangerous the "your home is your castle" attitude can be.

Throw guns into the mix, and I imagine stuff like this happens much more often in the US than it does over here. Partly heightened fear because of guns, partly the fact guns make it much easier to kill someone quickly without asking questions first.

[villa4europe]

9 hours ago, KentVillan said:

I think being willing to use a weapon defensively in a life or death situation is a different question from whether it’s sensible to own a gun.

Personally I would not own a gun because the odds are higher that it is involved in killing an innocent person (through accident, suicide, murder) than saving your life.

But that doesn’t mean it’s “ludicrous” to be prepared to attack or kill an intruder in the most extreme self defence situations, surely?

It is ludicrous because as I said earlier who of us in the UK seriously believe that we would ever and I mean ever will be put in that situation?

Do you go to bed at night feeling unsafe? I don't and I never will

That is the bizarre mentality of Americans, if its not the murderer breaking in to your house to kill your family it's Americas enemies coming to take your freedom, that is ludicrous, the answer is not buy a gun and protect yourself, the answer is fix society and stop living in a state of fear 

This life and death situation...these are not people in South Sudan or Ukraine

Edited March 29, 2023 by villa4europe