Gun violence in the USA

[StefanAVFC]

12 minutes ago, Genie said:

Lots of disturbing screenshots appearing on Twitter now of yesterdays shooter. Talks a lot about being a martyr from transphobia from Christian bigots. 

3 out of thousands of shootings by trans people, there's a campaign of hate from LGBTQ towards Christians that needs to be aggressively stopped.

No thoughts and prayers or 'immediately after the shooting isn't the time to discuss this', this time now the shooter isn't one of them.

[osmark86]

6 hours ago, maqroll said:

We don't have many shootings in Maine so I feel like we're a bit outside looking in on the horrors out there. I don't plan on moving anywhere.

It's not just the shootings though. It's the raw capitalistic nature of the country, the two-party political system, ridiculous healthcare system, for-profit prison system, widespread religious fanaticism, crumbling infrastructure, crumbling educational system...

To me it just seems like such an exploitative country.

I spent a year in university abroad there when I was much younger (in South Carolina) and while I had a good time there and met some lovely people it's not a place I would want to return to. Especially not to settle down. I know the US is a large place with different states and different legislature, but the states have more in common culturally than it has differences in my point of view.

[Xann]

Keep 'em thick.

[bobzy]

1 hour ago, pas5898 said:

If I lived in America I'd have a gun, i'd 100% have one. I'd need one to feel safe with all the other lunatics running around with guns.

Does that make me part of the problem or a symptom? 

What you're saying here is that you'd actively be willing to shoot people.

That's insane.

[pas5898]

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

What you're saying here is that you'd actively be willing to shoot people.

That's insane.

Correct, in the extremely unlikely event someone entered my house with a gun with my children in it, i'd use whatever means necessary. How "insane".

Hopefully that would never ever be required, but pretty much any father will do what's necessary.

My first precaution against that, is never ever moving to America so pretty sorted there. 

[Chindie]

Quote

The Washington Post sought to illustrate the force of the AR-15 and reveal its catastrophic effects.

The first part of this report is a 3D animation that shows the trajectory of two different hypothetical gunshots to the chest — one from an AR-15 and another from a typical handgun — to explain the greater severity of the damage caused by the AR-15.

The second part depicts the entrance and exit wounds of two actual victims — Noah Pozner, 6, and Peter Wang, 15 — killed in school shootings when they were struck by multiple bullets.

This account is based on a review of nearly 100 autopsy reports from several AR-15 shootings as well as court testimony and interviews with trauma surgeons, ballistics experts and a medical examiner.

The records and interviews show in stark detail the unique mechanics that propel these bullets — and why they unleash such devastation in the body.

What an AR-15 does to a human body

This article shows 3d models of what a round fired from an AR-15, the mass shooters weapon of choice, does to a body. It includes models of 2 real shooting victims, Noah Pozner, one of the young children killed at Sandy Hook, and Peter Wang, who was killed at Parkland. The models aren't graphic, they have no detail, there's no gore, they are very basic grey scale representations of a human, but they illustrate the trajectory of the bullets and what those bullets did.

They also have a comparison of the impact of the rifle round versus a basic handgun. The velocity of the rifle round makes it considerably more devastating.

[bobzy]

3 minutes ago, pas5898 said:

Correct, in the extremely unlikely event someone entered my house with a gun with my children in it, i'd use whatever means necessary. How "insane".

Hopefully that would never ever be required, but pretty much any father will do what's necessary.

My first precaution against that, is never ever moving to America so pretty sorted there. 

It's definitely insane.  If someone entered my house with a gun, I'd be ensuring I did everything possible not to escalate a situation where people could die.

If someone entered my house now, in the UK, with a knife, I wouldn't respond by grabbing another knife.

I'd far rather give up the goods they're after and carry on living my life 'normally'.

[pas5898]

7 minutes ago, bobzy said:

It's definitely insane.  If someone entered my house with a gun, I'd be ensuring I did everything possible not to escalate a situation where people could die.

If someone entered my house now, in the UK, with a knife, I wouldn't respond by grabbing another knife.

I'd far rather give up the goods they're after and carry on living my life 'normally'.

Clearly missing the "I hope that's never required" bit.

[mjmooney]

13 minutes ago, pas5898 said:

Correct, in the extremely unlikely event someone entered my house with a gun with my children in it, i'd use whatever means necessary.

How would you reconcile the problems of gun storage I outlined upthread? 

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, pas5898 said:

Clearly missing the "I hope that's never required" bit.

It doesn't matter, does it?  You're saying you'd 100% own a gun in case someone broke into your house.

That's saying that if someone breaks into your house, you'd want to shoot them.  That would be your go to.

[Panto_Villan]

29 minutes ago, bobzy said:

It's definitely insane.  If someone entered my house with a gun, I'd be ensuring I did everything possible not to escalate a situation where people could die.

If someone entered my house now, in the UK, with a knife, I wouldn't respond by grabbing another knife.

I'd far rather give up the goods they're after and carry on living my life 'normally'.

Hmm. I think you're going too far by claiming that there's absolutely no situations where it would be appropriate to pick up a knife to defend your family. It's not impossible that the person breaking into your house wants to kill someone, for instance.

The issue is that statistically it's very unlikely for a situation like that to arise, and having a gun makes it much more likely your family will die in a gun-related accident or you'll kill one of them in a moment of madness during a heated argument.

19 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

How would you reconcile the problems of gun storage I outlined upthread? 

I don't think that's the most problematic bit either. You put the locked gun storage in your bedroom so you've got time to arm yourself if someone breaks into your house (presumably downstairs), without having to leave a loaded gun somewhere where a child could pick it up.

Imo the actual problem comes when you've armed youself and gone downstairs, full of adrenaline, and accidentally shot your daughter who had got up to make a midnight snack. Or when your son figures out where you keep the key and decides to take the gun into school, or whatever. Good storage practices can't fix the fact that guns make it very easy to kill people.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Panto_Villan

[bobzy]

9 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Hmm. I think you're going too far by claiming that there's absolutely no situations where it would be appropriate to pick up a knife to defend your family. It's not impossible that the person breaking into your house wants to kill someone, for instance.

The issue is that statistically it's very unlikely for a situation like that to arise, and having a gun makes it much more likely your family will die in a gun-related accident or you'll kill one of them in a moment of madness during a heated argument.

I didn't say there was no situation.  If someone was coming to kill my family, then you'd obviously defend them.  "Just" breaking into the house though?  Yeah, I'm not grabbing a gun/knife.

[Panto_Villan]

5 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I didn't say there was no situation.  If someone was coming to kill my family, then you'd obviously defend them.  "Just" breaking into the house though?  Yeah, I'm not grabbing a gun/knife.

I think you're being a bit unfair on @pas5898 then, because he didn't say he wanted a gun so he could go downstairs and gun down anyone that tried to nick his TV.

He said he'd own a gun and use it if it was necessary. Personally I'd probably just stay upstairs and shout a warning down to whoever was downstairs that if they came upstairs then I'd shoot them, and I think it's perfectly possible that that's also what he had planned.

EDIT - I still don't think it's a good idea, of course. I just don't think you can assume someone who buys a gun to protect their family is a bloodthirsty maniac.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Panto_Villan

[pas5898]

5 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

I think you're being a bit unfair on @pas5898 then, because he didn't say he wanted a gun so he could go downstairs and gun down anyone that tried to nick his TV.

He said he'd own a gun and use it if it was necessary. Personally I'd probably just stay upstairs and shout a warning down to whoever was downstairs that if they came upstairs then I'd shoot them, and I think it's perfectly possible that that's also what he had planned.

EDIT - I still don't think it's a good idea, of course. I just don't think you can assume someone who buys a gun to protect their family is a bloodthirsty maniac.

Precisely

 

[Davkaus]

24 minutes ago, bobzy said:

  "Just" breaking into the house though?  Yeah, I'm not grabbing a gun/knife.

Especially not in America - an intruder is far, far more likely to be armed than one in the UK.

This is what insurance is for. Pulling a weapon is a good way to turn a robbery into a murder.

[bobzy]

20 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

I think you're being a bit unfair on @pas5898 then, because he didn't say he wanted a gun so he could go downstairs and gun down anyone that tried to nick his TV.

He said he'd own a gun and use it if it was necessary. Personally I'd probably just stay upstairs and shout a warning down to whoever was downstairs that if they came upstairs then I'd shoot them, and I think it's perfectly possible that that's also what he had planned.

EDIT - I still don't think it's a good idea, of course. I just don't think you can assume someone who buys a gun to protect their family is a bloodthirsty maniac.

He responded to me saying he'd be willing to shoot people by stating that he would shoot anyone who entered his house with a gun.  He'd use "whatever means necessary".  That isn't a misquote, he isn't saying he'd have a gun to fire warning shots, he literally responded to me saying he'd shoot someone by saying I was right:

 

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

What you're saying here is that you'd actively be willing to shoot people.

That's insane.

 

1 hour ago, pas5898 said:

Correct, in the extremely unlikely event someone entered my house with a gun with my children in it, i'd use whatever means necessary. How "insane".

Hopefully that would never ever be required, but pretty much any father will do what's necessary.

My first precaution against that, is never ever moving to America so pretty sorted there. 

 

I'm not saying @pas5898 is a bloodthirsty maniac, but he's literally talking about owning a gun to shoot anyone who enters his house.  For me, that's utter madness.

[KentVillan]

I think being willing to use a weapon defensively in a life or death situation is a different question from whether it’s sensible to own a gun.

Personally I would not own a gun because the odds are higher that it is involved in killing an innocent person (through accident, suicide, murder) than saving your life.

But that doesn’t mean it’s “ludicrous” to be prepared to attack or kill an intruder in the most extreme self defence situations, surely?

[foreveryoung]

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

What you're saying here is that you'd actively be willing to shoot people.

That's insane.

If someone broke jnto my house threatening my family, believe me, they would be better off being shot.

[Panto_Villan]

42 minutes ago, bobzy said:

He responded to me saying he'd be willing to shoot people by stating that he would shoot anyone who entered his house with a gun.  He'd use "whatever means necessary".  That isn't a misquote, he isn't saying he'd have a gun to fire warning shots, he literally responded to me saying he'd shoot someone by saying I was right:

I'm not saying @pas5898 is a bloodthirsty maniac, but he's literally talking about owning a gun to shoot anyone who enters his house.  For me, that's utter madness.

To me "whatever means necessary" means all options are on the table, including shooting someone. You seem to be interpreting it to only mean shooting someone, but I don't think that's how most people would understand it.

If he'd said he'd immediately shoot anyone that breaks into his house then yeah, I'd agree with you. I just don't think he actually did say that.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Panto_Villan

[bobzy]

4 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

To me "whatever means necessary" means all options are on the table, including shooting someone. You seem to be interpreting it to only mean shooting someone, but I don't think that's how most people would understand it.

If he'd said he'd immediately shoot anyone that breaks into his house then yeah, I'd agree with you. I just don't think he actually did say that.

I take it you read the quotes?  I said "you'd be actively willing to shoot people" and he replied "Correct.  If someone broke into my house with a gun...".  It wasn't a nuanced answer of "I'd 100% want to own a gun purely because there could be a situation where it's life or death".  If that's what @pas5898 meant then it's a misunderstanding...

 

 

...although I still wouldn't want to be owning a gun "just in case".